16. A Social Worker’s Journey into Consulting with Amber Joiner-Hill, MSSW

Taylor (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Social Work to Wealth podcast. I'm Taylor and today again, we're going to be talking about consulting. There's so much to talk about. So I'm happy to be joined by Amber and she'll tell us a little bit about, you know, her background and her transition into consulting. think, I think I mentioned this in our last consulting episode with Chrissy, which if you haven't checked that out, definitely ⁓ please do that.
She dropped some gems in that episode. ⁓ But yeah, consulting just feels kind of ambiguous to us that have never done it. And so I'm really appreciative of having social workers come on and talk to us about that. So yeah, let's get into it. Thanks for joining us, Amber. Really appreciate it. Yeah. So when did you graduate with your MSW? What year?
Amber Joiner-Hill (00:52)
Thank you for having me.
That was in 2014 from University of Texas in Austin. And it's special there. You get an MSSW, a Master of Science of Social Work. yeah, well, yeah, I think that's where all the extra debt came from, for the extra S. And I was, you can do two concentrations like most folks know, micro and macro. And I was the macro track.
Taylor (01:06)
Okay, what were your... ⁓ huh.
Oh, you fancy. Oh, no.
Amber Joiner-Hill (01:30)
which focused on, forget exactly what the acronym stood for, but it was CAL. I think it was Community Administrative Leadership. So, like other macro social workers focusing on checking up systems and policies that impact people.
Taylor (01:40)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, interesting. Tell us a little bit about like your internships and how that informed what you wanted to do after grad school.
Amber Joiner-Hill (02:03)
I will start a little bit further back before grad school. In undergrad, and I won't be before you long, ⁓ and for undergrad, I was pursuing a psychology degree with the intent to become a clinical psychologist. So either get a PsyD or a PhD. And in between junior and senior year, I took a trip to the Philippines and that was my first.
Taylor (02:06)
Okay.
Hehehe
Amber Joiner-Hill (02:30)
experience in a third world country. I didn't really know what that term meant. And we spent time with the ultra rich and the most impoverished folks in the community. There was no middle. And that's when I realized like I need to be in a position where I can change systems and I can impact as many people as possible. And I don't feel that I can do that as a clinical psychologist. And also
Taylor (02:54)
Mmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (03:00)
I don't really enjoy school and so I wasn't interested in changing my degree and staying around longer. So I wrapped up one more year and got the psychology degree and then spent some time thinking about what's next. What other, I know I need an additional degree, so what do I do? And I ultimately landed on social work. And I had two internships, one of them
gosh, one of them was a full academic year and that was at a nonprofit that focused on older adults and they didn't really have experience with macro social work interns and so.
you know, that placement was fulfilling to a certain degree, but they weren't really equipped to ⁓ kind of shape me into a macro social worker. And then you have your final internship, which is just a semester long. And ⁓ that remains even though it 10 years ago or 11 years ago, gosh, that remains kind of like one of the highlights of my career.
Taylor (04:11)
Hm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (04:15)
This was with the Health and Human Services Department for a county. And I was in this tiny little team ⁓ for, it was Research and Planning Division. And most of the folks on the team happened to be social workers also, macro social workers. And that's when I learned about, I saw what program evaluation looked like in real time. ⁓ I learned the concept of capacity building.
Taylor (04:15)
Wow.
Amber Joiner-Hill (04:42)
and technical assistance and this concept of kind of serving as an intermediary for your community. so ⁓ folks, community members want to communicate with government and other decision-making entities, but it's not easy to do that. And so you're in this like middle, this intermediary role and you can liaise between and ⁓ advocate for folks who don't have easy access to power ⁓ and then convene.
folks with different opinions and you're this neutral party who is just there to help people reach a middle. ⁓ And so that was just fantastic. And I am forever grateful for the supervisors that I had and the time that I spent there.
Taylor (05:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. That sounds really interesting. And I've never, I didn't know that there were some internships that you would only do for a semester and one that you would do for a year. That's different.
Amber Joiner-Hill (05:43)
Yeah, guess it varies. I mean, obviously it varies by school, but that was the norm there.
Taylor (05:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So from that internship, like, what were you looking for, you know, after you graduated, and what did you end up landing into?
Amber Joiner-Hill (06:01)
I, like I said, I fell in love with program evaluation specifically. And I was like, I'm going to be a program evaluator. And goodness knows a couple hundred applications later.
Taylor (06:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (06:20)
I wasn't a program evaluator, I was still unemployed. And now I have debt. And you know, that job application process started with, I'm applying for these jobs that sound like they would be fantastic. And then after a while, you know, the caliber of the jobs kind of, it shifts. And it's like, you know what, I think I would get a paycheck with this job. So let me apply here. And it just didn't, yes, your standards,
Taylor (06:23)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
You
⁓ huh.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Standards go down.
Amber Joiner-Hill (06:49)
go down a lot in your expectations and kind of your hopes also can be impacted and you start to question your competency and your capability. And so I heard about AmeriCorps and there's a part of AmeriCorps that's a specific program AmeriCorps VISTA, which is geared towards
Taylor (06:53)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (07:19)
⁓ So I think AmeriCorps, like the kind of traditional chapter of it, ⁓ tends to recruit a lot of folks who are maybe just out of high school, or maybe even maybe undergrad age. And VISTA is for a little bit later in career, but still kind of early career. ⁓ And they put you in professional capacity building settings. And I felt like, well, I'm qualified for it.
I really didn't want to apply though because one of their models is to not really pay you. Yeah, and so I applied for a role in Virginia and I got it and I accepted it knowing that I was going to make, I believe it was like $840 a month net and I still had...
Taylor (07:58)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (08:17)
⁓ My $250 a month car payment. ⁓ And I was renting rooms in Virginia for like $400.
And so I said, well, it's a job. And I didn't know. I said, it's a job. And on paper, I was like, some of this sounds really interesting and I'll figure it out. And I did, at the time I was kind of an in-between temporary living with my dad. And it was just, I don't know. I was at that point in life where I didn't want to live with my parents anymore. ⁓ And so I left and I moved to Virginia for this role and
Taylor (08:29)
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (08:57)
I burned through my savings very quickly, as you can imagine. You're not supposed to have another job outside of AmeriCorps. I did. I worked at a bar and I got paid cash just to kind of...
Taylor (09:09)
I mean, like, how are they, how
do they expect people to live? That is just wild.
Amber Joiner-Hill (09:14)
It
was fascinating to me. And so, you know, the VISTA agreement is 12 months at month two or maybe month three. I was like, I can't, I can't afford to keep this job. ⁓ And I told my supervisor and I said, you know, ⁓ I'm going to have to step away and move back to Michigan because I can't afford to do this for, you know, eight, nine more months.
Taylor (09:30)
you
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (09:44)
And she,
yeah, another really fantastic supervisor. ⁓ She was like, all right, let me see what I can do. And she did a couple of things for me. She ⁓ found, she connected me with one of her girlfriends who lived in the city and got me into a rental, how do I word it? Like I rented a house with her friend.
And her friend was charging me like nothing. And then she offered me a full-time staff position. And I didn't negotiate because I didn't know how to negotiate. And I was just grateful to make more than $800 a month. And so about three, four months into the AmeriCorps agreement, I kind of broke my agreement with them and then continued the role but as a full-time staff member there.
Taylor (10:19)
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
And what were you doing there?
Amber Joiner-Hill (10:45)
I was a Continuum of Care Coordinator and super brief explanation, a Continuum of Care or a COC is a federally mandated collaboration of regions and organizations to prevent and end homelessness in your region. And so I worked with a lot of nonprofits and some government entities in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia.
Taylor (11:05)
⁓
Hmm. Okay. Wow. What a journey and kudos to that supervisor. MVP. Yeah. Yeah. I want to go back to talking about program evaluation because I'd like for you to explain a little bit about what that looks like and why you were so interested in it. And yeah, give us the deets.
Amber Joiner-Hill (11:22)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. I am drawn to program evaluation for a handful of reasons. One of the reasons is that it allows you to be fairly objective in assessing how a program is designed, how it's implemented, and the impacts that it has. And it allows you to be relatively objective because you are looking at, like,
client data perhaps or internal administrative data around just like policies and procedures for program or finances. And you can couple those ⁓ quantitative numbers ⁓ with real people. And so that's qualitative data and so interviews and focus groups. And I love pairing the two to tell the whole story of what is or is not working.
Taylor (12:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (12:37)
and also help people either validate expectations that they have for their program or their organization, or allow them to kind of press pause and identify some gaps and then piece together a plan for how to fill the gaps and actually do the things that they say that they do. And so again, like we're shaking up systems that ultimately impact real people.
Taylor (12:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (13:05)
⁓ who need real resources and you can do it at this high level. ⁓ And so that's why I really enjoy, I enjoy doing that and I enjoy the human element of it through and through. I don't, whether I'm an internal evaluator or I'm hired to do it for someplace I don't work, I really like understanding the people behind the program.
Taylor (13:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (13:34)
on both sides, the people who are receiving the program and the people who are administering it. Because I think that has far, I know, I know that that has far more impact than whatever we have written down on a sheet of paper. Because it's real people who are doing the things on the sheet of paper. And so I really like connecting with people in that way and helping them understand their capacity to
Taylor (13:48)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (14:01)
be more effective if they want or their capacity to kind of shape how they are implementing a program. And if I'm receiving that program, I love, love, love elevating the voices of folks who aren't given enough attention ⁓ and making sure that their opinions and experiences and input
Taylor (14:23)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (14:28)
⁓ are elevated and heard and acted upon.
Taylor (14:32)
Man, I know this, this episode is about consulting, but I feel like we could have a whole other episode about program evaluation and what that looks like. And cause that is, that sounds really interesting. AmeriCorps, you do that for a couple of years. When is the transition? You know, maybe you have some other jobs before you kind of want to start consulting.
fast forward to what job you're in and kind of thinking about transitioning into consulting and what's going into that.
Amber Joiner-Hill (15:10)
Yeah, so I did a miracle for about three or four months and then I stayed as a staff member for two years at yet.
Taylor (15:20)
I see. So you're
not like still in AmeriCorps. Now you're a staff member at the agency that AmeriCorps had placed you. Gotcha. Okay.
Amber Joiner-Hill (15:26)
at the same place, yeah. At the
same place, doing the same work. this place is like, technically it's a nonprofit, it's kind of a quasi-government entity. But I was there for a total of two and a half years. And ⁓ I had decided that I had kind of peaked and plateaued and it was time for me to move on. And the...
My boyfriend, now husband at the time, was in Chicago. And so I said, well, by this date, no matter what, I'm leaving this job. I'm leaving Virginia and I'm going to go to Chicago. And I applied to a bunch of ⁓ places, not quite as many as right out of grad school. And eventually ⁓ I was hired. I moved to Chicago, no job. And that's okay for me. ⁓ And eventually I got a job at a policy research center.
in ⁓ Chicago. And I was there for three years. my experience at that place was the reason, almost the sole reason why I went into consulting. ⁓ It was a ⁓ really difficult work environment for me. ⁓
Taylor (16:51)
Hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (16:53)
created a lot of mental and physical health issues and challenges for me. And so I decided when I left, I wasn't ready to risk being in another environment like that. And so I said, well, I had this idea way, way back when around like, what would it be like to own your own business? Well, I guess I'll try that because I know that my workplace won't be toxic.
Taylor (16:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Because
I'm the boss.
Amber Joiner-Hill (17:23)
And so,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I create a great, I think, environment. And so let me try my hand at that not really. And I think I had the inkling. I had made the final decision, I think, to do that, maybe the end of 2019. mark? Yeah, no.
Taylor (17:28)
For myself. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (17:49)
Early 2020, like January, February 2020, I had decided like, you know what, that is going to be the next step. I don't have a timeline, but that is going to be the next step after I leave ⁓ this place. And slowly but surely I put together a plan for what that looked like.
Taylor (18:09)
Yeah, and we need to know about this plan. So what things were you considering? yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (18:23)
Yeah, I, ⁓ so I get asked this question a lot around, ⁓ like, how do you, how do you get into consulting and very much and truly like the simple answer is you just do it. And also like, and also like, that's not all that helpful. and you know, I probably Googled that, how do you get into consulting? And I realized there is no playbook for it.
Taylor (18:33)
Right.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (18:53)
⁓ there are a lot of components that we'll go into because it's not just consulting. You are a business owner. ⁓ there are a lot of administrative things. You are all the, like you are a, yeah, as a, as a solo entrepreneur, yes, you are all of these things, even though like your skillset is probably like in two lanes, you need to do all five.
Taylor (19:03)
Mm-hmm. You're ⁓ right. You're marketing. You're the accountant. Yeah, you're the-
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (19:22)
⁓
and so I, I did understand the components that had to go into at least getting started. And I learned that by there was this book is called, LLCs for dummies. ⁓ and you know, like it's that for dummies whole series and they have an LLC, ⁓ one and they break it down in a way that is so accessible. ⁓ and it makes it seem.
Taylor (19:45)
Interesting.
Ooh, I've never heard of that.
Amber Joiner-Hill (19:52)
Yeah, makes it because the internet will tell you whatever you want it to tell you. ⁓ And it can be very overwhelming. And so it was so nice to have one comprehensive tool to use that explained things to me in a way that were accurate and that were accessible and actionable. And so that was super helpful just to kind of get a feel for what do what step one. ⁓
Taylor (20:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (20:20)
And so I had that. also ⁓ made I had a notebook and I wrote down ⁓ this is all before I'm an official business. I'm just kind of plot. I'm plotting and scheming about the next step. Yeah. And ⁓ I'm writing ideas on what name, like what business name I want and kind of pros and cons of that. I also make a list. I made a list of things that I'm good at doing.
Taylor (20:31)
Yeah, that's what we need. Yeah, yeah, we need the deets about the plot and the scheming.
Amber Joiner-Hill (20:49)
Just this long list of here are just the activities that I'm good at doing in a professional setting. And then from that list, I identified what do I enjoy doing? Because what I'm not going to do is start a business so I can do things that I don't want to do.
Taylor (21:03)
Yes.
Amber Joiner-Hill (21:05)
And so ⁓ I kind of filtered out from that list. And then I drafted kind of some, you know, maybe two, three sentence descriptions of what that is. Like if I offer this as a service, how can I pitch it either in person or email or ⁓ on a website? And so I drafted some descriptions and I was
I used ⁓ other consultants as for reference, not for reference, but just for inspiration, I suppose. ⁓ You know, there's tons of consultants out on the internet. And so if I would find someone who offers services that were kind of similar to mine, I would kind of take note of the wording that they chose and whether I liked it or not. ⁓ And so that helped.
Taylor (21:43)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (22:03)
things. And then I got to legalize myself. And so I was in ⁓ Illinois at the time. And so I registered, I decided what kind of business entity I was going to be and that was an LLC. There are a few other options you can choose from. ⁓ I knew I wanted to be for profit. So 501 C three, four, etc. were not I wasn't considering those.
Taylor (22:07)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (22:33)
⁓ and so I chose from the for-profit options and then I just went online to, think, secretary of state for Illinois paid a couple hundred dollars. ⁓ well, I double-checked that my business name wasn't already chosen. It wasn't. And then, ⁓ and they won't allow you to register it if somebody else has it. ⁓ and then I paid a couple hundred bucks and I was official at least for a year. I bought myself one year as an official business.
Taylor (22:47)
Mm-hmm. Good call,
Amber Joiner-Hill (23:02)
In Illinois, I don't know the order of operations immediately after that. I do know that at some point I had to get insurance. ⁓ And this is business insurance. And each kind of business ⁓ needs different kinds of insurance. And we're specifically talking about consulting.
Some people maybe they you want to sell like a tangible item like a candle or wardrobe or whatever But specific to consulting more often than not you need something called It's called a general liability and then there's errors and omissions and I think there's something else and I didn't have much guidance there a brown like Where do I get insurance from? and so I
Taylor (23:56)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (23:58)
landed on what I found on the internet and crossed my fingers. ⁓ And so I paid for that. I do not remember ⁓ exactly how much that cost. I still pay for it. And so if I don't remember, that means it's relatively nominal. ⁓ And so maybe $200 or so a year, maybe. ⁓ And at some point, I did create a website.
Taylor (24:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's it.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (24:27)
I don't remember the order of operations, but I think the biggest, the most impactful act that I took to really start the business was I put together, ⁓ I gather all the email addresses of folks who I had built relationships with when I was working in traditional settings. And ⁓ I sent them an email and in the email I wrote, hey, it's,
It's me, it's your girl. ⁓ I own ⁓ Magnolia Detroit Consulting. And these are the services that will be offered. ⁓ I would love to talk more about this ⁓ with you all. And I sent that out. That was like the announcement, essentially, of the business. ⁓
Taylor (25:16)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (25:24)
that I got a lot of support. There's one person in particular, he and I worked together in Chicago and he left for a different role, but he's very well connected. And he was kind of like, not kind of, he was, and he didn't name himself this at the time, but he really kind of stepped up as my sponsor. And he put me, he didn't offer me my first contract.
Taylor (25:49)
Wow.
Amber Joiner-Hill (25:55)
but he offered me my first, he offered me the second contract. And it was ⁓ far more significant than the first contract I had. But I did that, sent out that email. And then there was a second act that I did. And I didn't think twice about this second thing that I did. I just did it. And it happened to be, have an amazing ripple effect. So I registered my business.
like March 15, 16, 2020. And when I started the business, it had a heavy focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion in anti-racism education. This is March 2020. This is like before we've even named COVID as a thing that we need to address. And then spring, summer 2020 happens and there's a lot of
Taylor (26:37)
Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Right. Right.
Amber Joiner-Hill (26:54)
conversations that people are finally starting to have around racism. And companies have voiced an appetite for education, for change, but for at least for education and the timing. And so everybody's kind of like the people who provide this kind of education are inundated with requests. And one company was on LinkedIn and they said, Hey,
Taylor (27:16)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (27:20)
we are overwhelmed with how many training requests we are getting. So we have started a Google spreadsheet. If you are a person of color owned business that offers ⁓ services, education, add your name to this list and it'll be available to all of the folks who are reaching out to us. So I put my name and contact info on that list and I got my first contract from
Taylor (27:41)
Wow.
Amber Joiner-Hill (27:49)
I got my first and several others from that list. I don't even remember the name. I wish I remembered. I don't even remember the name of the company that posted that spreadsheet, but they chose to that business was owned by women of color and they chose to set other people of color up for success. And, ⁓ oddly enough, that's not that common. ⁓ and I always have the utmost respect for people who are
willing and able who are willing to do that who are willing to like wealth is not
finite. There's not just like one pie of money and each of us need to fight for our tiny little sliver. No, there's like enough for all of us to have our own pie. And so they did what they could to allow other people to make a living. And so that email to my existing professional network and then just adding my name to a spreadsheet of a well-known entity.
Taylor (28:36)
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah. Wow. I, that is really cool. And I think it's a, it's a mini theme throughout our podcast where we've talked about networking and, ⁓ you already did your networking. And so you were reaching out to those people that you, you know, just saying, Hey, I'm doing this now. This is, this is what I'm up to. Do you need this, this service?
and you're putting yourself out there, that's really bold. And I think that seems to be one of the things that you kind of have to do with consulting is just put your name out there, go talk to people, let them know what you're doing. Tell people about what you're up to because.
how are they gonna know? I think sometimes we think that people are just gonna find us somehow. ⁓ So that's really awesome. And I think that list coming up on LinkedIn of, put your name on here. ⁓ sometimes I feel like once we set our intention of how we wanna move and what we're trying to do, sometimes things like that.
just happen and that's really awesome. Were you working? So when did you stop working ⁓ your last job before starting this?
Amber Joiner-Hill (30:18)
Mm
So I was at this policy and research center. I was in a full time position until March 2020. And then it was ultra part time from March until December of 2020. And ⁓ they told me ahead of time, like, you're not going to work here ⁓ after December. And I was like, great.
Taylor (30:38)
okay
Amber Joiner-Hill (30:49)
Couldn't come sooner. ⁓ And so I, so in between March and December, 2020, I am working both things. I'm working my part-time traditional role with a team who was fantastic, by the way. ⁓ Enough research, you can figure out where I worked. But that last team that I worked with, they were fantastic. And we were doing great work. And then, so I'm working with that ⁓ team.
Taylor (31:00)
you
Amber Joiner-Hill (31:18)
And I'm also setting up just like the administrative part of the LLC and I'm spending a few months doing that. And eventually I get that first contract in the fall, maybe August or so of 2020. And then I leave that traditional role and starting January 1, 21 consulting is my full time. This is my full time job.
If I'm going to get income, it'll have to come through this. And it is, it is scary and it is exciting equal parts to bet on yourself in that way. And one of the things I reminded myself of is that, ⁓ nobody's going to bet on me or believe in me as much as I will. And so I need to go like all in and
Taylor (31:48)
Cool. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (32:17)
do everything that I can to make this successful as I had defined success. I will say, know, and I am anti hustle culture now, but in 2020, there was all this rhetoric around like, oh, well, you know, if you don't come out of this year with a new skill or more money or a new job or whatever, like, what have you been doing? And I'm just like.
Taylor (32:31)
You
Like, what are you doing with your life?
Amber Joiner-Hill (32:44)
Right.
Yes, exactly. I'm just like, people are trying to survive. think that's what they're doing. But I was influenced by that for a while and I felt like, well, business owners are supposed to never sleep and you always stay working. And so I didn't have any real boundaries for myself for a couple of months. And then eventually I realized this isn't
Taylor (32:47)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Amber Joiner-Hill (33:10)
Just working seven days a week is not sustainable. And it's also not all that productive knowing how just like knowing how I operate. And so I put together a schedule so that things were so that I was taking care of myself and practicing better time management. And then January 1, 2021, this is everything. It's consulting and we'll see how it goes.
Taylor (33:28)
Yeah, because
Wow. Yeah, cause it's, mean, you could, you're not clocking in or clocking out. It's like, you could work on it for as long as you want. So yeah, that I run into that sometimes. I'm still working on that, but anyways, ⁓ your first contract.
First, let's talk about first and second contract, because you said first contract was a little one, second one, a lot more, you know, sounds like more pay, tell us like what you were doing, pay, all of that.
Amber Joiner-Hill (34:10)
Yeah, the first contract came from that spreadsheet that I put my contact information on. And it was this tech company in California. They wanted a DEI training. And I said, yep, I'll do it. I hadn't had anything put together. I was like, I know how to work a PowerPoint. I know how to do research. so I didn't know, and I think we'll get to this, I didn't know how to price it.
And so I just pulled a number out of the sky and I believe that that contract was for around $1,300. The product that I provided, it was an interactive training. The product that I provided, I was happy with and over time I made tweaks to it until I no longer provided, until I no longer offered trainings. That was that first contract. was just a one time, maybe two or three hour engagement.
Taylor (34:47)
Okay.
Amber Joiner-Hill (35:10)
And was that. And then my second one came about through who I will say is a spot. He operated as a sponsor. He worked at a national foundation and he was on the email list that I sent out and he said, hey, I'd love to talk more about that. And when we he and I worked together, he was aware of.
Taylor (35:21)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (35:36)
challenges that I was having in that workspace. ⁓ And so he was a little bit, he was like a work friend, not just somebody I used to know. And so I think that that helped. Like he wanted to help somebody who he had, who like we cared about each other as human beings. And so he's like, well, here's one of the things that we, here's one of the projects we need to hire somebody for. And that aligns with what you said you do.
Taylor (35:54)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (36:05)
Can you put together a proposal and let me know how much, like how you would do it and what you would charge? And he sends me like the project details. I was like, okay, so this is like some real work. This isn't just some one-off little training. This was ⁓ a research, a larger research project. ⁓ And so I, again, still not quite knowing how to price things,
Taylor (36:18)
He
Amber Joiner-Hill (36:34)
I I told him, ⁓ gosh, and this was gonna be for three months. We had already agreed it would be like a three month engagement. I think I quoted maybe like $7,000, which wasn't, is a lot of money on its own. And he came back and he said, okay, ⁓ no, we will pay.
I want to say he said maybe 11 or 12, or no. Oh, no, he said 15,000. And I was, yeah.
Taylor (37:08)
He was like, no, we're doubling. We're practically doubling what
you just said, because no.
Amber Joiner-Hill (37:13)
And so, I
think that, I haven't, and I'll never know, but I think that he asked me just as like a courtesy. ⁓ And I, very similar to the folks who started that spreadsheet. He was in a position of power and access to resources and knew that I was just getting started and still learning.
Taylor (37:21)
Just to see. ⁓
Yeah, yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (37:42)
And he could have paid me, but I quoted him, but he chose not to. And ⁓ that really opened my eyes. What the foundation paid me ⁓ really opened my eyes to the value of my work ⁓ and what people are willing to pay. And so that set the stage for some more. ⁓
Taylor (37:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (38:11)
strategic pricing coupled with I had relationships with a couple of entrepreneurs, solo entrepreneurs who were doing consulting and both of them were very giving of their time ⁓ and helping me try to figure out how to do a lot of things like how to put together a contract, how to price your work, ⁓ how to manage time. And so I had people in my corner.
Taylor (38:35)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (38:41)
⁓ which is so impactful. And they didn't have to be there.
Taylor (38:46)
Yeah, yeah.
And I think there's like talking about, you know, reaching out to people that you've, that have, that are in your network and that have, know your work ethic. think it also is in your favor that you've worked with this guy before. He knows that you can bring it. And so
I don't know. I, so I, I could see that being a reason why, another reason why he would want to say like, no, actually we're going to pay you more. Cause I know, I know what work, what your work ethic is like versus someone who doesn't know you, they're trying to save, you know, they have bills to pay and all of that. And yeah, and maybe that wasn't a factor, but, that's interesting.
question.
Amber Joiner-Hill (39:38)
Yeah.
Taylor (39:39)
So in terms of pricing, do you have any tips or just kind of like what has been your go-to? I don't know. Is there a go-to way of pricing your services? What kind of tips would you give people for starting out?
Amber Joiner-Hill (39:57)
First I'll say it's probably, it may be specific to industry. I fall, fell into ⁓ organizational consulting genre. So I was doing, I was offering organizational assessments, program evaluations, research, ⁓ facilitation and report writing. And I asked, sorry.
Taylor (40:09)
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (40:27)
⁓ we think you can leave that in actually. am normal like everyone and I get caught up. So at any rate, I asked a couple of the consultants who I knew, like, what do you think of this rate? And I think I, I offer $75 as a rate hourly rate. And they're like, no, don't be say, ⁓ one of them, she told me she said, ⁓
Taylor (40:31)
you
Amber Joiner-Hill (40:54)
at the minimum, like the bare minimum, even if you're entry level consulting, she said start at 150. And that felt a bit jarring for me. And so I think maybe I landed on 125 for an hourly rate. That didn't last long. I went up after that. But I did the 125. Well, eventually I
Taylor (41:15)
To what? What'd you go up to?
Amber Joiner-Hill (41:23)
pushed more for a flat rate, not an hourly rate. And I did that for a couple reasons. an hour, just in case, know, folks don't know. So an hourly rate is, let's say you have an hourly rate of $150 and you tell your client, it's going to take me 10 hours to complete this work. So you just do the multiplication, 10 times 150, that's what the client pays you.
Taylor (41:25)
Okay. Okay.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (41:53)
Alternatively, you charge what's called a flat rate. And so I think that 10 by 150 math is $1,500. Alternatively, you charge a flat rate. And you can say, I'm going to charge you $2,000 to do this work. You don't need to, and I'll finish it by August. They don't need to know how much time you are spending on that project.
Taylor (42:22)
Right,
yes, so true.
Amber Joiner-Hill (42:23)
And I
⁓ shifted as much as my clients were willing to flat rates. Because first off, don't need you to concern yourself. I don't need you to look at my invoice and tell me I'm spending too much time on one thing or another. Granted, that never happened. And I wanted to make sure that it didn't happen. ⁓ Also, I did the math. I actually make more hourly.
Taylor (42:45)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (42:53)
If I charge a flat rate, then I do hourly. The math works out depending on the project. It was up to maybe like 250 or 275. If ⁓ I charge a flat rate and then I would track my hours internally, I would just track on my end and then I do the math afterwards. ⁓ And I was making more money that way. And we don't need to concern myself. You don't need to concern yourself with how I'm spending.
Taylor (43:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (43:21)
the time where you need to, where you need to consider yourself is like ⁓ how our working relationship is and the quality of the deliverables that I'm providing you in my adherence to a timeline.
Taylor (43:21)
Hehehehe. Hehehehehe.
Yeah, and when you're paying my invoice. Thirdly, did you have any trouble with people paying you? Yes.
Amber Joiner-Hill (43:37)
Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
One client who I will not name, ⁓
yes, there was only one ⁓ organization where it got to a point where I had to tell them, I can no longer work on this project until you pay the invoice. And that's the only leverage you have ⁓ is I won't provide you any more work unless you pay me. If they choose not to pay,
Taylor (44:09)
Mmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (44:13)
If they chose not to pay me, I could either pursue it legally and I had already decided I'm not going to do that. ⁓ It'll cost me more if I go that route ⁓ or I'll just let it go and I'm done with this and you have received my skills for free. ⁓ They did pay me eventually, ⁓ but I just kind of took note of that and decided to, I decided I probably don't want to work with them again.
Taylor (44:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (44:42)
in the future.
Taylor (44:42)
Yeah.
When you are sending invoices, do you have people, so say you have a three month project. This is my price. Do they pay half upfront, half later? How does that work?
Amber Joiner-Hill (44:58)
I tried the whole pay me half now and the half later and nobody was really on board with that. And so I said, that's okay. And so my, ⁓ the typically it's a more often than not, it's a monthly ⁓ invoice. And so I will in this invoice and I use QuickBooks online to track contracts and invoices and what's been paid and not paid and all that jazz.
Taylor (45:14)
Okay. Okay.
Amber Joiner-Hill (45:27)
I will send you a monthly invoice that outlines what I have done that month. Sometimes you set it up where it's what's called deliverable based. And so I say I'm going to do three things in this contract. I will conduct research. I will analyze data and I will provide a report and a presentation.
Taylor (45:32)
Mmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (45:54)
And so I will send three invoices, one when the first thing is done, the second thing is done and the third thing is done. And that might not be a recurring cadence. Maybe it takes me two months to do one thing, one month to do another, three months to do another. And so, you know, we're touching on one of the characteristics of ⁓ consulting, which is inconsistent paychecks.
Taylor (45:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's a whole other conversation in terms of budgeting and how you plan your finances and yeah. ⁓ Wow, we, I have so many more questions, but I think.
Are there any other resources? I know you mentioned the LLC for Dummies, QuickBooks. Any other resources or books that you felt were super helpful for you?
Amber Joiner-Hill (46:57)
I have this, I think in my notes, one of the things I'll say is I am a resource. I understand how confusing and overwhelming it can be to figure out how to get into consulting. First, need to ask yourself though, is that what you want to do? And after the answer is yes, then it can be very overwhelming to figure out what do I do next?
Taylor (47:05)
Yes.
here. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (47:26)
And I benefited from people who were willing to volunteer their time and expertise. And it only makes sense to me to ⁓ offer that moving forward. And I've done that in the past. And I will continue to do it. so, yes. And I don't ⁓ charge. If you live, I will say this, if you live locally, I'm going to ask that you at least take me out for coffee. But otherwise,
Taylor (47:44)
Well thanks for offering.
Amber Joiner-Hill (47:56)
Like, don't worry about it. ⁓ And so the most tangible resource I had was that book, LLC for Dummies and Other Entrepreneurs. Even if they're not in your field, they can still offer some valuable ⁓ insight as to like their lessons learned or, ⁓ no, I would consider
Taylor (48:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (48:24)
getting insurance with them instead of that because X, Y, Z. And a huge, huge, huge resource is yourself and the grace that you offer to yourself. I figured out so many things along the way and I continue. So consulting isn't my full-time job anymore, but I figured out so many things along the way and I made a difficult decision.
Taylor (48:37)
you
Amber Joiner-Hill (48:53)
to take the pressure off of myself to not have it all figured out before I did anything. I love to procrastinate. That is my favorite pastime. I am also type A and I am also a perfectionist. And so I can stall something into oblivion. And so just like the first question I think you asked me was like, how do you get started? And I was like, just do it. So that's always like, just do something, just do something.
Find a name, out what you want to offer. Register yourself, like just do something to start the momentum and understand that you will learn things along the way.
Taylor (49:22)
Yeah, don't procrastinate. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's huge because like you said, there's no roadmap to this. mean, you know, try, I'm, trying to just share stories like yours and others so that people can get kind of some inspiration and some tips, but ultimately there's no playbook. So yeah, just get started and take that first step. No procrastinating. Um, so you are
Last thing, what are you doing now? What's going on?
Amber Joiner-Hill (50:10)
Yeah, so I super abbreviated timeline. I did full-time consulting for about two and a half years. That was my sole income. And then I returned to traditional employment a couple years ago. And I was doing program evaluation. I left that role earlier this year, and I went back into consulting.
And ⁓ while still doing consulting, I started a job as a, ⁓ I'm an associate director of research and evaluation at a local nonprofit. So a little bit of consulting ⁓ and all the time, full time job, a traditional role.
Taylor (50:57)
Yeah, when you were consulting the first time, two and a half years, what would you say your yearly salary was about?
Amber Joiner-Hill (51:07)
Yeah,
so my salary is what I paid myself and the business revenue is something else. So the first year is technically 2020. And so the revenue, is just every single not profit, but just every single dollar that came into the business that first year was around 15,000. And then after that, it was 90,000 and then 97.
Taylor (51:14)
Good point. ⁓
Amber Joiner-Hill (51:37)
And then ⁓ after I kind of eased out, I started to ease out of consulting, was 20, around 20. And that was the revenue. And I paid myself a net 38,000. And I landed and the rest went to retirement, primarily retirement. ⁓ And there are some administrative like fees to keep a business alive. ⁓
Taylor (51:45)
Mm-hmm.
Amber Joiner-Hill (52:05)
You know, I had an accountant, I mentioned insurance and websites, stuff like that. ⁓ I chose to pay myself very modestly. ⁓ Why? I couldn't tell you, but that's what, that was enough for me to live the life that I wanted to live.
Taylor (52:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's all that's important.
Amber Joiner-Hill (52:30)
Yeah. And so my salary, yeah.
So my salary was 38,000 net. And then the revenue was at its peak, 97.
Taylor (52:40)
Thank you for sharing. Really appreciate that. If anyone wants to talk with you, connect with you, where should they go?
Amber Joiner-Hill (52:52)
So not really on the internet like that, but my email address, which I guess we can include in the show notes, it's just, yes, my last name without the hyphen, joinerhill at gmail.com. I am always willing to just kind of either be talked at or talk with someone, especially, so everyone, and also,
Taylor (53:02)
in the show notes.
Yeah.
Amber Joiner-Hill (53:23)
I'll kind of move mountains to make, to do what I can to support other black women in professional spaces.
Taylor (53:29)
Mm-hmm. Love that. How about LinkedIn? Yes.
Amber Joiner-Hill (53:34)
I
am all LinkedIn, or LinkedIn as my father calls it.
Taylor (53:38)
my gosh,
that's cute. Link it in. Okay, I will also put that link in the show notes. Well, great. Thank you so much for all of that. That was...
Amber Joiner-Hill (53:43)
Yes.
Taylor (53:55)
Lots of, lots of helpful tips there. And, ⁓ yeah, if you want to, if you need some support consulting, getting started, reach out to Amber. Maybe that's your first step instead of procrastinating the idea. Your first step is reaching out to Amber. Interesting idea. ⁓ well, thanks everyone for listening and we'll be back in two weeks.