20. If Talking About Money Feels Hard, Listen to This with Aja Evans, Financial Therapist

Taylor (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Social Work 12th podcast. I am Taylor, your host today, and we have an amazing guest today, Aja Evans, financial therapist, certified baddie.
Aja (00:16)
She's
not being faceted.
Taylor (00:21)
⁓
My friend and just amazing person. I'm really excited for us today to be talking about financial therapy, and packing your relationship with money, your money story, all those things. So yeah, let's get into it. So Aja please tell us who you are, what you do, and how you got into this work.
Aja (00:42)
Sure, so I'm Aja Evans. I am a licensed mental health counselor in New York. I'm a financial therapist nationally and internationally, if you will. I'm the author of Feel Good Finance and do a few other things as well. So I really got into this work because I needed it and I didn't realize how much I needed it or how much the people around me needed it and weren't talking about needing it. So this really was the thought
child of years of financial stress and anxiety around money and not really understanding it and feeling bad about myself because I didn't understand it and feeling bad about myself because I didn't make some of the best financial moves in my early 20s. I'll say my 20s altogether. So it really is just the evolution of me learning about money and really understanding how much the emotional and psychological
impact has ⁓ when you're just trying to figure it all out.
Taylor (01:46)
Mm-hmm. I'm curious. I mean, this isn't about your journey, but I'm curious about just like, what was that first, I don't know, light bulb moment that you had and like the first step that you took when you're like, ⁓ like maybe I could do something about this.
Aja (02:05)
Yeah, so that light bulb moment, and I talk about this often and I talk about it in my book too, really came, ⁓ I was at an Easter dinner in Brooklyn with my cousin who is also in the finance space. Shout out to Tim Smith. ⁓ And he is a few years older than me. He was married already and had kids at that, like at that moment he had like young kids. And here I am like a little 20 something in the relationship with my now husband, but not engaged nothing.
living with a roommate and I'm like, Tim, I'm stressed about money. Like, I don't know what to do with my debt, student loans. I think you talk about this stuff a little bit, right? And he was like, well, yeah, Aja, you should just start learning about money. You should start kind of either reading about it, reading books, listening, just kind of starting the process of consuming and getting financial education information. ⁓
Taylor (02:56)
Mmm.
information yeah.
Aja (03:01)
And from there, I literally did take that advice and started Googling. And this was,
10 years ago maybe a little bit over. So the level of information was not as present as it is now. Like you scroll Instagram and it can be right there in your face. ⁓ I was like searching through blogs, through tumblers trying to like figure out this information. That's when Business Insider was always talking about somebody's debt payoff plan and how exciting it was. ⁓ So I was really consuming from like very
Taylor (03:27)
my gosh.
Aja (03:38)
just like random sources, but that really started my process of really falling in love with personal finance.
Taylor (03:43)
I love that. For people who maybe aren't familiar with financial therapy, how do you describe it?
Aja (03:52)
Yeah, so I would say the work that I'm doing and how I approach financial therapy really is that we are diving into your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions, the psychological behaviors that you do all around your relationship to money. Thinking about what is motivating you, what are the patterns that you ⁓ experience throughout your life, not just now, and then how is it impacting your finances. And we talk about that.
Taylor (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
That's, that's huge.
And I will, I love, I mean, you have been in this space for a while and just kind of the, but seeing the growth and how we're starting to talk about this more and more about, it's not just about the numbers. mean, it's less about the numbers and more about our feelings and relationship and our history with money. And yeah, it's just such an important conversation. What.
What do you feel, what do you see mostly when people coming in and like their emotional kind of baggage or relationship with money? Like are there patterns or?
Aja (05:01)
Yeah, totally. So I would say with the clients that I'm working with, and this is important for any person who's doing this work,
There are so many variables that come into play when you're looking at the population that you're serving. your location, ⁓ just like your location geographically, like in the country, right? Like that does play a part. So I'm specifically in New York City. Living in New York City and working in New York City comes with a whole slew of its own issues that may be different for somebody in a different location. So it's important to keep that in mind. It also comes with a lot of people who have higher salaries, right?
⁓ higher than like the national average I would say so With that the people that I'm working with I'm usually seeing money avoidance ⁓ People who are hoarding their money or a money hoarder if you will and then I'm seeing a lot of women who feel like they have been Completely left out of the financial conversation and are getting to the point where they're like hey I'm making good money and I want to be able to build it like I want to grow it and I want to feel empowered
Taylor (05:39)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (06:09)
how
are you using my money, how do I make sure I'm doing that?
Taylor (06:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think with the money avoidance piece, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that because, you know, I think as social workers, a lot of us have a ton of debt. You know, we have these like money messages that we get from our community, our social work community, our profession about...
how we shouldn't care about money and all of that. So it's like, there's that whole slew of baggage that we have, you know, but I think this money avoidance really, I think I've really seen that in our community because of how much debt we have. Like, how do you help people with that? What do we do?
Aja (06:40)
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah, I know. I want to know, I'm having
such a strong reaction of protectiveness and in defense of social workers, of counselors, of therapists, because to be clear, we had to get these degrees to be able to do this work, but it is work.
Taylor (07:12)
Yeah.
Aja (07:15)
⁓ And there are some people who are privileged enough that they're doing this because they want to and it may not be the thing that's paying their bills or it's actually a supplement to paying their bills and that's amazing for them to do this work. I love that for them. But there's a lot of people ⁓ who do this because it is their job as well, right? Like, correct.
Taylor (07:36)
Right, we have to go to work because we need to trade
our labor for money to live in this society.
Aja (07:42)
Correct,
correct. So like time for money. Like this is a job. I love therapy. I love doing this work. But if I didn't have to worry about the money piece and I still worry about money sometimes too, honestly, quite frequently. ⁓ Right?
Taylor (07:58)
Same. Yeah. I think there's a
myth that we who are talking about money online have it all together, which I am trying to be very clear that I do not.
Aja (08:08)
Correct, but we're like we're gonna pull back
you know, the facade that we don't need to talk about it, that it's unsafe to talk about it and be vulnerable and have these kinds of conversations. So I feel a lot of protectiveness around our industry and mental health in general, because it really is bullshit that we're all just here out of the love and kindness. I'm like, if that's the case, then somebody does need to wipe out my student loans and anybody else who's in tens of thousands dollars of debt trying to help people. And we're seeing
Taylor (08:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Aja (08:42)
the impact that what happens to humans when we don't care about humans, when we put our money somewhere else.
So I think in general, like how do we move past it is to have these kinds of conversations, right? It is to say, let's bust out of this shame.
Taylor (08:55)
Yeah.
Aja (09:00)
jail that we've put ourselves in around not talking about money and say, hey, this is what my services are. I value my time. I value my effort. I value my education and my experience. These are my rates. And it took me a long time to get to that place. When I first started like 10 years ago, I think I was charging $80 a session. Out of network, $80 a session.
Taylor (09:15)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (09:27)
That felt like a big deal for me to say $80. And it was a big deal for me to say 100 and to jump from there.
Taylor (09:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's
like, as mental health professionals, we're struggling with this money stuff in our work and personally, and just, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that we're going through. just, yeah, it's so frustrating. Sometimes I'm like, I don't even have any more words. I'm speechless. I'm speechless about what we have to endure.
Aja (09:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes, and are expected to endure because of the kindness of your heart. I'm like, you better get out of here with that. There's a lot of stuff that we have to do to schooling, interning, working, then taking another test, getting licensed, then being out there. There's a lot that we're holding, right? There's a lot of secondary trauma for being there and showing up for people, but we don't talk about that. don't.
Taylor (10:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aja (10:30)
want to say, well, that was hard for you as a therapist, you should utilize your self care more. like, no amount of self caring it in any kind of the sense of the word can unhear some of the things that I've heard. And it's made me a better therapist, but it doesn't make it easier to hear these things or it makes it easier to show up. For me, it does. And I feel competent showing up. But gosh, when you're, you know, I was 23 when I graduated, like I went to a day rehab and they
Taylor (10:46)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Aja (11:00)
told me I looked like a shaky leaf.
Taylor (11:04)
Okay.
Aja (11:05)
Yeah, that's what my clients at the time, it was a court mandated drug rehab in a day program. I was 23 right out of grad school because I went straight and they told me I looked like a shaky leaf. And I just thought that was so hysterical because at that time I was so much more confident than I was before I interned. And I interned with high schoolers and high schoolers are going to tell you about yourself, you know, so it's just.
Taylor (11:29)
Okay.
They really
are. They really are. No, that's amazing.
Why do you feel like, aside from our industry, like kind of just personally, why do you feel like it's so hard for people to talk about money? That's probably a loaded question.
Aja (11:48)
⁓ yeah, so loaded, but that's okay. We're here for it.
I really think that ⁓ our society, but I'm really gonna talk about American society, like specifically, has really found a way to tie our value as individuals to how much money that we're making. And it's almost like, hey, the higher your title or the higher your salary, the more respect you deserve. And with that, I think the other side of that is that people feel very vulnerable.
Sharing that they have debt they feel very vulnerable sharing that they're not making as much money It feels really uncomfortable to have to say no to things or to say that you can't afford things like just saying hey I can't afford it turns into this. well, are you having trouble with money that? Yes, are you okay? And I'm like that is such an interesting response that we have like where did that come from?
Taylor (12:38)
Do you need help?
Aja (12:47)
And I think that's what makes it so difficult for people to be vulnerable and open up about what's going on for them.
Taylor (12:53)
Yeah. And there's so much shame. I think because we don't talk about it a lot, we're assuming that we're the only ones with the problem. Everyone else has it together. And so, but in reality, most of us have debt. Most of us are struggling with our money in some type of way, because most of us aren't making those
super high incomes. mean, even, and I'm not even going to say that people who are making high incomes don't have money struggles like that. They definitely do too. But I think just in general, we're, we're assuming that other people aren't going through what we're going through, but they are, you know?
Aja (13:36)
Yeah, we all are. And I
can say somebody, so I have.
And I love having conversations with people in the therapy community, right? With social workers, with counselors, because I'm like, you understand what I'm talking about. When I went full-time private practice, I wasn't making, it took me about two years to break the coveted six figures, right? And since then, I have been making six figures, which I'm very proud of, and I think that's amazing, and sometimes I'm like, my God, Aja, good for you, how? But.
I still think there are times when you're like, you see certain people online or just ads or whatever's coming up across you. You're like, oh, well this therapist was making a quarter million dollars. They're making $250,000 just by seeing clients, just by charging this much. I'm like, what?
Taylor (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Aja (14:28)
How? I'm like, wait, where's that revenue coming from? Show me the money. Because I also am not interested in burning out and seeing all clients all the time at Nausium to the point where you really are struggling in your own mental health so that you can see people like, I'm just not gonna do that to myself. And maybe that's the difference. ⁓ I disagree, but I do wonder.
Taylor (14:34)
Mm-hmm.
No, totally. That's it's yeah, those the unrealistic kind of messages that we we see online. ⁓ I think also yeah play a huge part in us feeling like we are less than or or failures because we're not making this money or we're not traveling all the time. And yeah, the the impacts of social media are really
negative in that way.
Aja (15:24)
Yeah. And
also really contradictory to what you hear in school too, right? So like in school, you're like, well, you're not in this for the money. Like if you get to 80k, that's a really big deal as a therapist, as a social worker, like that's you're doing really well for most. But then you hear the social media, you know, marketing and it's like, yeah, well, why aren't you at 200k? Why aren't you at 250k?
Taylor (15:33)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (15:54)
There's a very wide range between the messages that we're all fielding around money and then no one is teaching us how to even navigate the business part of it or negotiate a salary when you are in your master's program.
Taylor (16:06)
Right.
Right. Yeah. So we're struggling with that and we have this huge debt that we don't know how to attack. You know, it's, yeah. What do you think, like why do you think it's important for people to engage in financial therapy and unpack their relationship with money and police about money?
Aja (16:34)
Yeah,
I just want more people to be more confident about their money. And when I say people, I specifically mean women and I specifically mean black women, honestly. I want us to show up as confidently as possible, knowing that we can step up and handle whatever it is because we have the resources. ⁓ And I also wanna make sure that people aren't trying to self soothe or cope with the hardships of their life only using their money.
Taylor (16:43)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (17:04)
Now it's okay to use your money for that quick dopamine hit like I love a sweet treat. I'm here for it. I get it Or if you're like, hey, it's my birthday I do want a new outfit or I want to go on this amazing vacation with my friends like that all has a place But I don't want those coping strategies to be the only thing that you utilize when you're struggling I do want you to call a friend. I do want you to be vulnerable I do want you to have conversations and break you out of shame isolation. I want you to literally just
Taylor (17:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Aja (17:34)
like when I say touch grass, it's like not in the cute like trend way. It's kind of like, let's go ground ourselves in the grass. Like literally go stand in the grass outside, listen to the birds, like ground yourself. I want people to be able to utilize, you know, their internal resiliency to be able to cope with the hardships of life. Cause they're gonna be here for everybody.
Taylor (17:47)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (18:00)
and then be able to do what we want with money because our country at this time only responds to money as power, right? Like power is very wrapped up in how much money you have in our country and I really hope that shifts, but I'm all about like burn it down from within, if you will. So.
Taylor (18:11)
Woo.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aja (18:22)
If we've got the money and the resources to say, hey, you know what, I really like what you're talking about, I'm gonna throw you some money to make sure this happens. How can I help? How can I do this? ⁓ Time, energy, and financial resources. I want that for all of us.
Taylor (18:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. When people, so when people are coming to you, first session, first couple sessions, like, what is it that we're, what conversations are you having with people in the beginning?
Aja (18:54)
Yeah.
So in the beginning we're really diving into one of two parts of their story. So we're either starting at the beginning of like, okay, walk me through how we got here, how we got to present day and like what are the things that are kind of eating away at you in present day. Or we're starting at present day because you know, a lot of people are just trying to figure it out and mulling over some feelings and emotions and they need to kind of verbalize them and then we can go back and start from the beginning. So it's either what's going
on today or walk me through how we got to today. And that lasts for, you know, a couple sessions, more than a couple sessions, like probably four to six.
Taylor (19:26)
Mm-hmm.
Wow. And the walk me through is just, it's about life and money, or it's the kind of financial journey.
Aja (19:37)
everything.
Yeah, so I would say life and money more so it's kind of like how did you grow up with money as a kid? ⁓ So people I think especially because they know they're coming to me specifically for financial therapy Understand that I need the money aspect too. So it's kind of like yeah These are my siblings or I was I grew up with my parents or my grandmother raised me And this is kind of how money was treated growing up. This is how I'm coping with money now I just had one client who's done a lot of work before she did
Taylor (19:47)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (20:11)
started financial therapy with me, which I love and think is so amazing because she's already connecting a lot of things was like listen, I am a workaholic because of how I grew up and That insight is very helpful to then start thinking about okay for you Working means you're getting money, which means safety now. How do we start to make sure you can feel safe without being?
workaholic, like what do we need to start diving into and unpacking? But sometimes it takes people a little time to start drawing those connections and those patterns and that's why I'm here to help them do that. So yeah, it's money and it's life too because as you can imagine relationships are always going to have an impact too.
Taylor (20:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. mean it helps you you kind of you guys going through that process helps you understand them But also it sounds like it also helps individuals Kind of I don't know recognize patterns on their own maybe and then you guys can start working towards like Yeah, how can we make it to where you feel safe in other ways? That aren't like overworking yourself
Aja (21:10)
Yeah.
Exactly, that.
Taylor (21:24)
Yeah, I love that.
So if, you know,
people online or in general who are, who are maybe discounting financial therapy, like, yeah, what would you say?
Aja (21:36)
Yeah, I mean,
I would just be like, first of all, I don't think that any financial provider who is dealing directly with their clients and directly with their money could ever say that it's not emotional. I have heard from planners, advisors, wealth managers, time and time and time again that they...
Taylor (21:55)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (22:00)
were surprised at how much they have to deal with the psychological and the emotional aspects of people's money. They really thought that they were going to be there planning ⁓ and moving money and doing, you know, the advising piece, but they are really having to navigate ⁓ all of the like emotional aspects.
Taylor (22:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
The emotional piece,
yeah.
Aja (22:21)
Right.
And that's when I would just be like, you cannot separate them. Like it is impossible. I don't know why we as humans feel like we can just like separate how our brain works. It's at this point, it is very comical to me. I would just be like, well, how's that working out for you? Because it sounds like the thing that you're running from is the same thing that's going to haunt you forever. So let's start getting to it now so you can feel the relief of not feeling like you're never going to
Taylor (22:26)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aja (22:51)
get it.
Taylor (22:52)
the relief, the relief that is such a huge, that's underrated feeling the relief about your money. And I think that's a feeling that I had experienced as I started learning about personal finance and kind of doing little tweaks and in my own family's, you know, money stuff and just that relief and also empowerment that like I wasn't
Aja (23:17)
Yeah.
Taylor (23:21)
just burdened by all of this and that I was in control and that I could make decisions about where my money was going and what it was doing, even if I have debt. I mean, I still have it, but that is kind of what fueled me to want to share my story with other people because I'm just like that relief and empowerment is just, I wish I could bottle it up and give it to everyone.
Aja (23:30)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's why. ⁓
I feel so strongly about this work because I've watched it, right? Like once you've experienced it, and I love that you said like bottle it up and give it and share it because once you've experienced it or you've watched other people have it, especially when they felt so down about their debt, about their finances, about not having enough in their retirement, about not having a home yet and buying a place, like all of these things that we hear circulating all of the time. ⁓
Taylor (23:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-mm.
Yes. ⁓
Aja (24:18)
When you watch somebody go through that, that is so amazing to go from. And I had a client who went from, I think she had about like, I'll say $18,000 worth of debt and she was ignoring it. And we went from that point to I think we worked together for about a little over a year and at the end she paid off all of her debt, had a $10,000 emergency fund and was planning her 30th birthday party in Bali. And I was like,
I'll never forget one day she showed up and was like, hey, Aja, I built myself a spreadsheet. I was like, I'm sorry, what? You? Who is this? Exactly, so I feel emotional just thinking about it. That.
Taylor (24:54)
Who are you? Who's this?
Aja (25:01)
is why I do this work because somebody can go from I don't even want to touch my money to now I can have this dream vacation for my birthday party and I think I can actually buy a house. Like I think I can start the process of saving for a home and that it gives me goosebumps. I'm like that's what lights me up. that
Taylor (25:21)
Hmm.
Aja (25:21)
watching that moment and supporting her through that. didn't build her sheet. I was like, okay, we're gonna talk about it. And she felt motivated to build the sheet, build the sheet for her partner. They were tackling their debt together. It just was so beautiful to see.
Taylor (25:38)
Yeah. And I think that kind of example of her transformation in therapy specifically, like people have it in therapy or not. I didn't go to financial therapy, you know, but I just kind of started educating myself in other ways and books and things. But I think what I'm getting at is the process of this transformation in therapy. It takes a while, right? You said it took her how long to get from there to?
Aja (26:03)
Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean,
at least a year to get to the point of like, okay, we're looking at our finances. Where did this come from?
Taylor (26:13)
Now we're not avoiding it. We're looking,
we're looking at our credits card statements. And I think that sometimes we, we feel like we just need to get it all done in one month. And if it takes longer than that, then we're a failure, you know, and just, love that example because yes, it does take a while for us to get.
Aja (26:28)
Yeah.
Taylor (26:37)
over all of this kind of money trauma and shame and guilt. Like this isn't something that we can just be okay with after, yeah, a couple months. Like, and it's okay and that's normal,
Aja (26:51)
I think that people want this quick change. And I'm like, you have been doing this for years. Correct, that you didn't even realize all the time that you were doing them. So.
Taylor (26:57)
Right, these are ingrained behaviors.
Yeah.
Aja (27:03)
Yeah, we do need to take the time to let you make some mistakes or go over and I think a lot of people are like, ⁓ you hear these big numbers and you're like, my goodness, did they get money? Where did this come from? Like I have a normal people job. No, she ruthlessly cut her budget. Like she was like, I am spending a lot of money on Ubers. I'm not taking Ubers anymore. I'm spending a lot of money on takeout. I'm meal prepping. Like she really significantly cut her budget to the point that she was able to throw extra money and start a debt snowball and then
Taylor (27:19)
Mm-hmm.
Aja (27:33)
pay off the debt. ⁓ yeah, that it's hard. It's really hard to say I feel better every time I get my $8 Starbucks and now I can never get it starting day one. Like no, cold turkey, I just don't think it really works. It can work for people, but I want long-term change and that takes time.
Taylor (27:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you want to enjoy
the journey. think that's something that Brett and I have tried to just really embrace of, we have six figure student loans, six figure debt. They, wasn't all student loans. Now they are. mean, we started our journey in 2023. had $277,000 of debt. Three years later, we have about 122 now. I mean, we've paid off a significant amount, but still.
three years later, like we are still in this. We are still, you know, so yeah, it's... Thanks. Yeah.
Aja (28:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's so impressive. Like when you think about that three years to me is no time. Like that's not a lot of time. Like that's
very impressive. And I think people underestimate how much you can get done in that amount of time. Like they would be like, no, that's impossible. You can't get there.
Taylor (28:45)
Yeah.
Totally. But also it's unrealistic. It would have been unrealistic for us to expect for that to be all gone in one year. Like it's been small changes over time and you know, still kind of re-centering of like, why are we doing this? Okay. How do we make this sustainable? Because we don't want to be miserable. We're not, I'm still going on vacation.
Aja (28:57)
Right. ⁓
Yeah.
Taylor (29:15)
I'm still doing things that
I love. I'm by plants. I, because yeah, there's, there's that, there's the balance of yes, we have goals and we want to move towards them, but also like we, we don't want to be miserable. How, what do you recommend for people in terms of kind of just like getting started in further money journey?
Aja (29:18)
Yes, Queen. Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, where would I have people start? I mean, shameless plug, you should read my book. ⁓ That will truly start you on your journey. Yep, feel good, fine once. ⁓ But if you're not really ready, because that's going to dive you in, as you can see, I'm always going to be coming in hot. ⁓
Taylor (29:50)
Yes, true. We'll link that in the show notes for sure.
Aja (30:02)
you're not really ready to kind of dive in that deeply yet, I would say take the time to start understanding why you feel uncomfortable about your money. So it does not have to be a whole thing. It could literally just be you sitting down. I'm always about romanticize it a little bit, right? So sit amongst your plants, get your candle out, know, spray some rose water and think about in journal, why does money feel hard to me? Why do I feel uncomfortable?
about my money. Exactly. What are some of these money beliefs? What is this rooted in? And then from there, let's start looking, looking at your money ⁓ and deciding like, okay, do I like where I'm at or not? And what do I want? And then you can have fun and dream big and decide like what you want your money to do for you and how do you want to live? And what would be really awesome if you were able to do that? ⁓ And then you can go read my book.
Taylor (30:33)
Where is this coming from?
Yes.
Yes. And I think it's such an, it's an important step to pause and think and answer some of those questions and really kind of reflect on how did I get to where I am now? Like you were saying, that's what you ask your, your clients when they come in, like, how did we get here? What influences in your life have made you feel this way about money? ⁓
Aja (31:29)
Right.
Yeah. Totally. I think people just really discount how big they are and how big the impact of those experiences in your life have on you. And that's why it's so hard because it is so emotional.
Taylor (31:31)
That's huge.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we're not talking about it and we're not, I mean, it's hard to share about our numbers, but then even more deeply kind of our family background trauma and how that relates to money even more personal, ⁓ which is why it's so important that there are people like you.
that are out there providing people that space to be vulnerable and be accepted and validated and, and yeah, just giving people space to know that it's okay. Yeah.
Aja (32:27)
It's okay. And I can promise you you're not the only one. Like, that's the part about shame that I think is really hard for people, how isolating it can be. I swear you are not the only person who's in this situation. You're just not. You're just not. ⁓ And that's great because that means that there are other people who done it and there are other people who may have resources and can help you feel less alone.
Taylor (32:32)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. That's great. Man, I feel like I got a little mini therapy session just now.
So let's end with your money moment. I feel like I haven't done this on the episode for, on the podcast for a while. I don't know. You know, we released episodes kind of out of order, but anyways, for anyone who's just popping in, our money moment is either an insight, a win, a failure of just.
anything related to money that our guests have experienced that they want to share so we can kind of just like normalize, continue to normalize these ⁓ conversations about money because money impacts literally, I feel like as I've gone on in this work and just learned more about money and it's so intertwined with everything that we do.
Aja (33:48)
Yeah.
Taylor (33:50)
Like we, I'm like, I wish I could count how many times I think about money every day. Unrelated to.
Aja (33:56)
my goodness. my God.
Taylor (34:00)
my work, you know, with this podcast, but like personally, how many times do I think about money? I'm sure we all, it's in the hundreds of thousands. Like this is why it's so important for us to unpack this stuff and move forward because it is so intertwined in our work. So anyways, I'll get off my little soap box there, but ⁓ do you have a money moment to share?
Aja (34:00)
work. Yeah.
Yeah, a lot.
Yeah, I actually, and I'm gonna share this moment, I have shared it before, but it's just been really on my mind this week. I did a podcast earlier this week and ⁓ they asked for a money failure. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna call it a money failure, because that feels weird. And I don't think it was a failure,
So it is a money you regret.
So two things are my money regrets. I really regret.
⁓ not going ham on my student loans when I first graduated. When it was just me, I didn't have kids or a mortgage or just I just had time. Honestly, I had time. I wish that I had either picked up a second job or did something to really... ⁓
supersize how much I was paying off my student loans and tried to honestly just pay them off then because the number that my student loan is at now compared to where it was, like at this time it's gone up $20,000 and I've just been making payments and I think that is really crazy to me. And I know that's very common for people but it is annoying me and I feel bad about it still and I wish that when I was younger and had the space and time that I was just like really not listening
the system say if you make these standard payments of this much money by for this much time it will be fine? No. ⁓ No. So that and then I also wish that I really poured into my retirement. ⁓ That is one thing that I am like really feeling right now in the midst of like having young kids and
Taylor (35:45)
Yeah.
Mm.
Aja (35:59)
not quite yet pushing 40, but pushing 40, I am really thinking about my retirement more seriously now and I wish that I had been both be pouring into my retirement a lot more than I was as well as paying off my debt. So those are my two money regrets that I've just been like chewing on this week.
Taylor (36:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'm I'm curious like it's a money regret and so is it because At that like when you were making the decision to not do it you knew that you should have been doing it or you honestly you didn't know
Aja (36:32)
Yeah, no, I had no idea. So I can't, and that's why I don't feel like it's a failure. It feels like a regret. And it's like, I wish, of course I wish I knew at that point, but it's just like ⁓ maybe a regret that I didn't know, right? Like I think about how much information people have coming out of grad school now and what that could look like for them. Like some of these people, some of my clients were literally start like,
Taylor (36:39)
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Aja (37:01)
starting these side hustles in college. I'm like, wow, like very different experience than I had in college. Like I'd really had that true millennial college experience that we all talk about. ⁓ But I'm like, wow, that's, really is gonna supercharge where you're able to be at financially in your twenties. And I wish I had that information at the time to be able to do the same.
Taylor (37:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing.
Aja (37:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Taylor (37:30)
Please tell us a little bit more about your book and why you love it and why you wrote it and why people should read it.
Aja (37:34)
Yeah!
Yeah, so feel good finance really is the journey of understanding your money, your emotions and your relationship to your finances in general. And I wrote it for that little 28 year old Aja who was trying to figure out money and feeling weird and not understanding why she felt strange about it or felt like her self-esteem was slipping when she couldn't keep up with her friends, that sort of thing. And it really is just allows you to kind of have
these feelings that we've been talking about and move through them, reflect on them, journal about them, get them out in the comfort and safety of wherever it is you choose to read your books. Because sometimes it's hard, right? It's vulnerable information. I'm kind of prompting the reader to move through to be able to understand ⁓ not only what they need to do with their money, but why they feel the way they do with their money.
Taylor (38:31)
Yeah. And, and also what I love about it is you're not shaming people or kind of making them feel bad about previous money, any, whatever regrets or whatever that they've gone through. is about
approaching ourselves with curiosity and acceptance and and all of that which is so needed because even though there are there's a growing amount of us who are ⁓ You know promoting this message of you're not a failure for The money things that you've done in your life. There are still lots of people out there who are making people feel bad about what they've
did or what they did or didn't do with their money. I, I love your, I love your book for that. Where can people find you and where do you hang out all the things?
Aja (39:30)
Yeah, so I hang out a lot on Instagram. ⁓ I had a TikTok, but I turned it into my garden TikTok. now, yeah. I totally switched it. I was like, I wanna talk about my garden. So I'm just like, you're getting gardening content.
Taylor (39:38)
What? I haven't been on TikTok in a while, but I did not know this.
I love
this.
Aja (39:49)
So
yeah, I'm on Instagram, Aja E-Therapy, A-J-A-E-Therapy. ⁓ You can find me on my website, of course, always AsiaEvansCounseling.com. Feel Good Finance is available at your libraries, at stores. If they don't have it on the shelves, you can just ask them and they'll be able to get it for you.
Taylor (40:09)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today and thanks everyone for listening. My shameless plug, if you love, if you're loving this podcast, please rate, review all the things that helps us ⁓ reach more listeners like you. So thank you so much and we'll be back in two weeks.