22. Salary Series: Forensic Social Worker Making $45-$95/hr

Taylor (00:00)
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Social Work to Wealth podcast. And today we're going to be talking about salaries and forensic social work, which I'm really excited. ⁓ this is the first episode of a series that we're trying out, you know, we'll, we'll see how it goes, but it's, I'm calling it the salary series because I know social workers want to hear about salaries. do.
We're nosy and we also just want to see like the possibilities of like, yeah, what's out there. ⁓ and so my hope with these episodes is just to bring on people who are. You know, really ⁓ willing to share their salaries and being transparent about that. think that's super important for our profession. and yeah, so today's the first episode with Erica who I met on Instagram.
which is so cool just randomly. So I posted a salary. ⁓ I posted a couple salaries on Instagram and one of them was a forensic social worker salary. And I put in the caption, if anyone knows about forensic social work, I don't really know what this means. Can you like reach out to me? So Erica did and we chatted and yeah, super fascinating work. And she's ⁓ very
Erika Morris (01:06)
Yeah.
Taylor (01:26)
awesome for coming onto the podcast and sharing her salary and also talking about forensic social work. So I feel like we're getting a two for one here to get into the details of forensic social work, but also ⁓ what she's making in forensic social work. So thanks for joining me, Erica.
Erika Morris (01:44)
Yeah, yeah, definitely, Taylor.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.
Taylor (01:49)
let's start with just like your social work journey and like how you got into forensic social work.
Erika Morris (01:57)
Sure, totally. Well, let's see here. I went to school for social work in, I graduated in 2022, May of 2022. I went to school in Colorado at Metropolitan State University of Denver.
Taylor (02:15)
That is the longest name.
Erika Morris (02:17)
It's a very long name
and you know what I just had the thought of. was like normally people in that would say go whatever their team mascot is because they have some kind of like, know, affinity like some kind of association with that. But I was like, wait, what's the mascot again? But I do remember it's Roadrunners randomly Roadrunners.
Taylor (02:25)
Yeah.
Okay, random, okay.
Erika Morris (02:37)
So go Roadrunner. But no, I think it's
a really great university. ⁓ And so, and you know, I had been in my twenties and such, had been, you know, traveling around a bit and doing, you know, various things, various jobs. At some point I realized that I liked like, I don't know, being of service to people and felt like, of course, that's a very worthwhile.
profession and I think I'm also influenced by my mother who's in a kind of profession. also, my sister's a teacher and my brother's also in this kind of work. So I think it's just like a family thing too. And so then, you know, I kind of like evolved into thinking, oh, I think I would like to go to school for social work. I had my bachelor's from previous in sociology and then I was like, I'm gonna go get my master's in social work.
And so, you know, so I got my masters. You know, when I was in school, I did take a, you know, ⁓ social work and the legal field kind of class, right? But with that class, I think the kinds of social work in the legal field that were talked about was definitely like.
you know, kind of CPS stuff, right, where you're involved in the courts in that sense. And then also some community courts stuff, you know, so, or therapeutic courts. And so those are the kinds of courts that, ⁓ you know, possibly someone has a mental health.
Taylor (03:56)
Mmm.
Erika Morris (04:13)
issue. There's all sorts of these therapeutic courts, but maybe a mental health issue, substance use, there's like a veterans court, maybe on people who are unhoused, like all these different populations meant to, and it's meant to be a much more like communal kind of therapeutic setting. so ⁓ anyways, so that's really what we were taught about.
Taylor (04:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
So you were in this social
work, social work and law class and you guys talked about those kinds of things. Okay. Okay. Gotcha.
Erika Morris (04:39)
Yes. Yes.
Yes,
and my professor in that class was actually she had like a dual kind of degree, you know, where she was a lawyer and she was also a switch worker, which is very cool combo. More people should do that, which that sounds like a lot of schooling. But yeah, so anyways, so that's how it was proposed to me. OK, then like when I was looking into what my internships would be, I, you know, I did my first internship at an organization, Women's Bean Project in Denver.
Taylor (04:49)
that's cool. Yeah.
haha
Erika Morris (05:11)
They work with people who have challenges getting into the workforce for whatever reason and work, it's a social enterprise, they provide them a job and then provide them wraparound services to kind of get them on their feet. I did that for my first internship, my second internship. Basically, they...
MSU, so know, Metro State has a database, I think a lot of universities do, of partnerships they have with various organizations that people have interned at before. I really was like thinking, I kind want to do something in the legal field. I think I was influenced by family friend who's a lawyer and does public defense work. And I was like, I kind of would be curious about that. And so, ⁓
I was looking into those, you know, what kind of partnerships the university has with, you know, those kinds of agencies. And I stumbled upon the alternate defense council, like the office of the alternate defense council. How does that work? ⁓ And so I applied there to be an intern there.
and I got the internship. didn't quite know exactly what it would entail, but I was curious to learn about it. So that was the start. Yes.
Taylor (06:44)
Yeah. Yeah. That was your first kind of entry yet talk. Yeah.
So let's talk about like what you did there and what you saw and things you learned and stuff like that. Yeah.
Erika Morris (06:52)
Yes.
Yeah,
sure. That sounds good. ⁓ So, you know, I really appreciated, I think generally I really appreciate that agency, Alternate Defense Council in Colorado. I think they're doing really good work. I think they have really great leadership. I think one thing that I've learned along my social work journey is if a place is, especially in this kind of thing where it's like, you know, I think this happens a lot to social workers where we're working in a setting that's not.
We're not like the primary providers like in medical settings. So it's the same with legal settings where we're not the primary provider and there's like all this lingo and all this way of doing things that it's like not our expertise.
Taylor (07:41)
Cause like the primary,
when you say primary providers, the primary provider are the attorneys. Right? Okay.
Erika Morris (07:46)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
And so I know I keep going on tanning, but you know, just the idea. Okay. Good. Good. Good. I'll just keep doing it then. ⁓ but yeah, that, you know, so basically what I've learned through my social work journey is like, if you're interviewing at a place and a social worker isn't there in the interview, if they have like an attorney interviewing you, you're like, I don't
Taylor (07:52)
That's the point of this, I'm interviewing you, yes.
Erika Morris (08:15)
This isn't for me because you're clearly not social work oriented and you're not working from our value system. If you're having.
Taylor (08:18)
Interesting. When they were interviewing
you as an intern, was just the attorneys that were there? The social workers weren't there? okay.
Erika Morris (08:26)
No, no,
since then I have had ones like that. But no, for this agency, it was two, the two head social workers at the agency who were interviewing me. And they're both, they're both really great. ⁓ And so yeah, very social work oriented agency. ⁓ And, and so yeah, so I, ⁓ and I knew like,
Taylor (08:30)
⁓ gotcha.
Gotcha.
Awesome.
Erika Morris (08:54)
Yeah, I didn't know I didn't know exactly about the work, but I feel really grateful for that experience because basically I had a supervisor and I started off by just like ⁓ joining him in some of his some of the work he was doing right. So just shadowing him and and just like, yeah, like and then starting to take on more and more of a role until I had my own cases I was working on.
Taylor (09:21)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Morris (09:22)
And
because in forensic social work, specifically the kind where you're a mitigation specialist, which is what I was and still do, there's a kind of steep learning curve is what you hear a lot, is that it's kind of a lot to learn and it's a lot to navigate at first, but then once you're in it, then that's why like.
I've heard a few times from various parties and I would agree that like you need such a setting where you have a supervisor or you have some kind of guidance, you have some kind of training in this work and you're not, rather than just applying to this job and getting thrown in. ⁓
Taylor (10:05)
Yeah. When you
say, did you say mitigation or litigation? Mitigation. Okay. Can you explain what that is?
Erika Morris (10:10)
mitigation. Yeah, yeah, yes,
yes, definitely. Okay, so, so basically the work that a ⁓ forensic social worker does on defense teams is, so in ADC how they would work it is the attorneys would request to have a social worker
on their defense team. basically our role was a few different things. It was to ⁓ support the client. so including like visiting them in jail, know, if you're usually ⁓ the kinds of
clients you end up working with in this mitigation setting have more serious charges ⁓ because the defense attorney is aiming to make the most robust defense and so that's why they bring a social worker on to begin with. usually most likely they'll be in custody and you'll be visiting them every week in jail. ⁓
So part of it is support, part of it is a friendly face, part of it is someone who's on their team coming to see them. Because of course in that kind of setting, there's a lot of people who see them as a criminal, see them as a number. can be a very dehumanizing space.
Taylor (11:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (12:06)
And you know, various different jails are different in terms of how bad they are. Yeah, some are better than others and some have like good programming and such and have like mental health support and substance use treatment stuff. ⁓ anyway, so the first one is to be a friendly face and offer support ⁓ in that sense, not a therapy role, but just to be a friendly face.
Taylor (12:12)
Right. Yeah.
Erika Morris (12:34)
and also to address things that maybe is going on for them in the jail as best you can. And that's the same thing, where different jails are different in terms of how easy or hard they are to actually get in touch with someone who could make a difference for them or if they'll even respond to you. Yeah, if they'll even try.
Taylor (12:56)
Try. Okay. What kind of things, what
kind of things have your clients like requested help with that you needed to reach out to the drills for or present?
Erika Morris (13:05)
Sure, yeah sure. like for example, like a medication thing might come up where there was a medication that they were on previous and they're struggling to get the proper medication currently and so that you can advocate for ⁓ them to get on their the proper medication. But I would say there could be, yeah, all sorts of things. ⁓
Taylor (13:25)
Ciao.
Erika Morris (13:32)
that come up. I'm trying to think of what else has come up in the past. But, you know, I think I also try to make their time more ⁓ pleasant for them by, you know, I'll bring them books.
Because the thing about jail, another tangent, is that, you know, it's like, you know, with, with it's cold and it's, yeah, and it's, yeah, exactly. It's, it's rough. It's not homie. And like, and it's, this really uncomfortable time in people's lives for obvious reasons, but also the uncertainty of it. Like when you're in jail, you're just waiting.
Taylor (14:01)
It's cold and just not homey and just rough.
Yeah, yeah.
Erika Morris (14:22)
to know what your fate will be, what your sentence will be. So you don't know how bad or the length of your prison sentence. You don't know how long it will be. ⁓ And you don't know what will happen. So I think that uncertainty is so uncomfortable. And then of course, not knowing about seeing your family, just your future. That's of course for any of us, that's very uncomfortable.
Taylor (14:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (14:51)
And also ever since COVID, they have like, would say jails across the country don't allow for in-person visits anymore. there's probably some that do, but they don't allow for in-person family visits. And so I think that's something that changed with COVID, but they'll do video visits with family, but that's it. yeah, so it's an uncomfortable time for them, but as much as possible, I think I, ⁓
you know, yeah, trying to be on their team in the sense of like talking to them about like, here we are, like, how can you use this time? Possibly you were in this kind of life situation, previous to this. And okay, let's think of, and this is a good time for reflection at the very least, right? This is a good time to think about who am I, who do I wanna be? And who do I wanna associate with most likely? ⁓
And, you know, these kinds of things can apply in the jail too, because there's people in the jail who are, itching to just get right back out and go, go right back to whatever they were doing before. And, ⁓ and then that can lead to just coming back and over and over, right? Just like in and out of the system over and over, but like, okay, be careful who you associate within the jail also, because there's people who are like, hold on, I'm going to pause here.
Taylor (16:12)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (16:20)
and I'm gonna make a better life for myself. okay, associate with those people. If you wanna change your life, like you can really change your life. yeah, trying to bring them books and maybe like, you know, journaling kind of prompts those kinds of things to help them think about all of these kinds of ideas. So yeah, that's one part.
Taylor (16:25)
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So yes, so you go,
you're going to visit them for it to be like a friendly face. Trying to maybe do some mini case management for them if they need help with like things from the jail. What else?
Erika Morris (16:44)
Yes.
Yeah, and so then really our main role, which I know I've said a lot about everything else, but ⁓ our main role really is the mitigation piece. So it's to ⁓ gather life history information from the client. Of course, we all know this is very social worky that the...
The reasons that we get into the various situations we get into is because of where we come from, right? And there's all sorts of influences that bring us to the point where we are. so, of course, people in these legal settings, they don't just plop down on the earth and end up in jail. There's all sorts of reasons.
that they've ended up in that setting. And of course, usually it has to do with a trauma history, ⁓ possibly ⁓ substance use. ⁓ These things are very common.
so yeah, like there's all, of course, all sorts of things that can, influence their, their histories, right. Or, you know, that are from their histories that can influence their present. Um, and, and so like our job is to get that, that information, right. It's like, um, gather life history information and, um,
Taylor (18:08)
Yeah.
How extensive is this? How extensive is that? Like, is it a pretty, like you're writing pages on pages about this person?
Erika Morris (18:20)
Yeah, we do this.
It's...
It's very extensive, it depends. I would say the more severe the charges, the more extensive you wanna be. One of the old social work ⁓ bosses at the previous agency would talk about overturning rocks, And how many rocks are you gonna turn over in this person's life? And there's a lot of factors that can influence how many rocks you turn over.
I would say in a general way, you try to turn over all the rocks you can. A lot of times there's restraints though, like time is usually a restraint. And usually the...
Taylor (19:01)
Yeah.
Like your time,
like your time to like get all this information. Yeah.
Erika Morris (19:11)
Yeah, exactly. so,
usually, you know, in the court, the attorney, like there's a clock, ticking clock as far as like when these ⁓ court dates are coming up. You know, attorneys can ask for continuances, but I would say like the less severe the charges, the quicker it goes, right? So, ⁓ it's all, yeah, so, yeah, so less fears the charges, the quicker it goes. So usually that's a restraint.
Taylor (19:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (19:40)
And ⁓ so you can, as far as how deep you go, ⁓ it can go very deep. ⁓ would say definitely requesting, so in order to gather this information, we talk to client, gather life history information from them, we talk to family and friends of theirs, and that they give us permission to talk to, right? It's all like.
It's all defense oriented. It's all, you know, know, client led and, ⁓ and client centered in terms of like they, they guide us and what they would like us to pursue. And then we also request records. ⁓ and so on the subject of how deep, like requesting birth records, I regularly request birth records, even, you know, I haven't ever done this, but people go as deep as to request records about mom.
you know, for example, and like her life. ⁓ And yeah, and like definitely at least pregnancy related, how was your, you know, talking to mom, how was your pregnancy? Were there any complications, you know? And one thing that's very like unfortunate and can definitely be a reality is that mom was using some kind of substance during pregnancy or drinking during pregnancy. This is very common. ⁓
Taylor (20:39)
Wow.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (21:05)
And so, you know, trying to get that kind of information from various sources. so basically all of this information is put together into ⁓ like a social history report, right? Where you, based off of all the information that you've collected, you, ⁓ you know, separate the information into mitigation themes. So, ⁓
Taylor (21:33)
Hmm. Interesting. I,
for everyone who's listening, who's I looked up mitigation and it means that you're like reducing or trying to lessen the harmful like effect or charges in this situation. like your job, just to like wrap my head around this, your job is to help kind of like get this history and
Erika Morris (21:48)
Yes. Yeah.
Taylor (21:59)
Yeah, support the attorneys with trying to get a less send or no kind of sentence. Yeah. Okay.
Erika Morris (22:07)
Yes, that's it. Yes,
yes. And so, yeah, so that's it. like, we, these mitigation specialists come in to play usually during plea negotiations. And so it's not when, it's not, know, like we wouldn't come into play when client is on track to be going to trial because, you know,
Yeah, that's kind of a different, well, it's not a different path. It's like that can happen once ⁓ if plea negotiations don't go well, right? But ⁓ so we come in, yeah, at that point of plea negotiations usually and it's, ⁓ and yeah, the idea is to, know, this report that we write is given to the prosecutor and given to the judge.
And the idea is to humanize the client, right? And help all of these parties that are involved in this client's fate, right? Understand the person more holistically, right? Because the reality is, is that these people are dealing with a lot of cases and this client's a piece of paper, right? That has charges, usually like a criminal history and then their current charges. And it's like, okay, I'm gonna judge this person based off of that.
Taylor (23:21)
Yeah. ⁓
on just that.
Yeah, totally.
Erika Morris (23:30)
Yeah, so it's like you're trying to like help, you know, bring the kind of client's life into the courtroom, you know, and the client's history. it's like.
Taylor (23:36)
Wow. That's a lot of,
that's a, I feel like that's a lot of pressure for you. For like, for that role. Yeah.
Erika Morris (23:43)
Yeah, it kind
of, it kind of is. Yeah, it kind of is because it's, it's a really big deal. But, know, I think as far as an attorney, you know, just thinking, you know, zooming out, it's like one of the tools in the toolbox, I would say for an attorney, you know, and like, I think it helps, you know, also it helps the attorney understand the client because oft, often we have way more contact with client than attorney does.
Taylor (23:49)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Erika Morris (24:10)
So it's like, can also be a point person between attorney and client. And also I've definitely had many times where I've advocated for client to the, you with the attorney ⁓ and just making sure my client's voice is heard with the attorney and really expressing to client like, you know, we're here for you. We're working for you. And this is your life. Make sure that you're getting the representation that you deserve. And that is your constitutional right. ⁓
Taylor (24:10)
⁓
Fascinating.
Yeah.
I love that. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
I love that.
Erika Morris (24:40)
So
yeah, so it's like, don't just passively accept everything, know, like, yeah, let's be actively thinking about, like, we want to make sure we're getting good representation. And yeah.
Taylor (24:52)
Yeah, that's, that's really, that sounds really fascinating. So like day to day for you was like, you would have multiple clients and you're just kind of in various process in this process at like a various time with these different clients and just going to see them. And it seems like you're probably managing your own time, you know, and getting kind of this report done because you have like a deadline to get this report in. And does that sound about right?
Erika Morris (24:54)
worthy.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's like when you initially, it's interesting because like as I'm talking about it, I'm in a similar role now, but it's a bit different than it was when I was in Colorado. Now I'm in Washington. So...
Taylor (25:23)
Okay, interesting.
Erika Morris (25:38)
But so I'm kind of talking, I think I'm talking more from the perspective of when I was in Colorado and exactly how the role was approached there. But yeah, so basically, you you get on to a case, right? Maybe, you know, maybe it's an attorney you've worked with before and they call you up or email you and they're like, I have a client who I would, ⁓ you know, would like a social worker to be on, on, the defense team and like, you available? Previous and currently they're both contract roles, right?
Taylor (25:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Erika Morris (26:08)
independent contractor roles, right? And so ⁓ the one previous was, ⁓ you know, a little bit more structured than the one I'm in now. The one previous, like, it was like an actual, like, kind of yearly contract, right? You get paid hourly. You keep track of your hours and, you you get paid for mileage and you get paid for driving time and... ⁓
Taylor (26:34)
Mm hmm.
Yeah, let's, let's start, let's, let's pause there. So you were, know, I know your history here a little bit. So you were in this internship, you graduate and then you're like, I want to work here. Or they were like, Hey, do you want a job? How did that go?
Erika Morris (26:38)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay, yeah, good point.
Yeah, totally. So I was in the internship and I liked it and I had a supervisor and I was going to graduate. so basically when I was getting ready to graduate, I applied to be a contract worker. And they already knew me, right? But I still had...
Taylor (27:23)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (27:24)
whole process and I references and everything and ⁓ and yeah so I got the the contract role and I like I started I hit the ground running right like I my contract technically yeah I already know this my contract technically started the day after I graduated you know because as soon as I graduated then that made me eligible to like be paid basically and
Taylor (27:37)
Totally, because they're like, you already know this.
⁓ that's cool. Okay. So let's talk
about the contract. Let's, get into the money now.
let's talk about your, your contract and what they offered you hourly and how that works and everything. So yeah.
Erika Morris (27:57)
Yes. Uh huh. Sure. Uh huh. Yeah.
Sure. Sure. Yeah. So back in the day, back in Colorado at ADC, um, when I first started, when I, you know, me saying that I was able to, um, start as soon as I graduated, I was making, so my initial amount was $44 an hour. So that's a, that's a contract rate. So
Taylor (28:23)
Okay.
Erika Morris (28:26)
That means, you know, that I don't get any benefits, right? I didn't get any, there's no benefits. The one benefit that ADC does offer, which is actually really bomb benefit, is supervision towards licensure, right? ⁓ Free supervision. So that was actually really helpful. ⁓
Taylor (28:32)
Right.
Oh, that is really cool. Nice. Nice. So I did the math on
that $44 an hour for, know, if you were working 40 hours a week, that's $91,500. So I mean, that was in what year?
Erika Morris (28:58)
So that was in 2022.
Taylor (29:00)
2022, mean, thinking about post-grad, out of your first job, out of grad school, making 91,000, and I realized like, you you're not getting the benefits, but like, even still, I feel like a lot of people are looking at, you know, 50 to 60, ⁓ and you know, if you're having to pay for your insurance and like, you know, maybe,
Erika Morris (29:19)
60, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, easy. Mm-hmm, for sure.
Yes.
Taylor (29:30)
⁓ contributing to retirement and stuff, that still is more money than you could have
Erika Morris (29:31)
Mm-hmm. Right. All those things. Mm-hmm.
Taylor (29:35)
gotten. Like, yeah, that's, that is really cool.
Erika Morris (29:37)
Yes. Yeah.
And that's the thing about forensic social work too, would say. And, know, and that's kind of why we're here is I think it's, can, it is, it can be a very, ⁓ well-paid field and, and well-paid and in high demand. would say like the more I'm in this work, the more, like, because I would say as a country and you know, the bar association, you know, all these like,
They all are like, we're all going towards this holistic defense is what it's called is like defense that's oriented towards like, people ⁓ have needs. Yes, legal needs is one of them here they are in this legal situation, but they have other needs that need to be addressed in order for them to not be in this situation again. And so
Taylor (30:23)
Absolutely.
Erika Morris (30:27)
That's being that kind of mentality is ⁓ and that kind of philosophy, like legal philosophy is really ⁓ like now on the rise. Yeah. And I would say is becoming more ⁓ best practice. So anyways, I think the field will just keep getting bigger and bigger and like, you know, more these, kind of friends of social work and mitigation specialists will and social workers in defense will be just more and more.
Taylor (30:37)
Like on the rise. Wow. Wow.
Erika Morris (30:56)
But yeah, so I started there at 44 but then like, you know on the on the subject of salary it went up really quick I think the fiscal their fiscal year is like June something like that I think it was actually as quick as like I know no, maybe it was one year I'm trying to remember but anyways mine and then it was 44 but then I went up to 55 Like like pretty quick. Yeah
Taylor (31:19)
My goodness. And that's within
one year. Wait, wait, wait. I'm doing the math real quick for everyone. $55 an hour is $114,400 if you're working 40 hours a week. Um, that is amazing. And also that is like, that should be around what everyone is making out of grad school. just want everyone who's listened to this podcast up to this point knows that
Erika Morris (31:32)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taylor (31:47)
I believe social workers need to be paid more, but that is so cool. But I know that you were saying, I mean, when Eric and I were talking before, were you billing 40 hours a week? Like what is kind of the average that you're billing? That's the thing.
Erika Morris (32:04)
Yeah, that's
the thing. Yeah, that's the thing is that that role in Colorado, you know, their whole thing was like, you can work as much as you want. Like you can work 80 hours a week if you want.
Taylor (32:17)
Right. Cause,
⁓ an attorney is calling you and saying, Hey, like, are you available? Are you available? That's kind of, it's kind of interesting. Now I'm really clicking, because you're the contractor and you know, if they have a case, they're like, okay, I'm going to call Erica. I'm going to call this other person and you can take it or you can say no. And then they would just call someone else. I see. So yeah, if you're just like, yeah, I can take it. I can take it. I can take it. You can work 40 hours a week.
Erika Morris (32:22)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes, exactly. Yep. That's exactly it. Right. Exactly.
Yeah. So it's like, can take on as much as you want, as much or as little as you want. So you can make it like a part time role if you want, or like full time or extra way, a lot, ton, know, full time. you know, post, you know, like plus plus. And ⁓ yeah, so.
Taylor (32:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (33:04)
Yeah, you can work as much as you want, but yeah, it's like, you know, for me and like before, you know, so I have, I have kids, I have two kids. And, this was when my, my daughter was, ⁓ you know, little, know, she's five now, but she was what? Two, you know, at the time, ⁓ she was in a daycare setting, but you know, of course that made it. So I wasn't always like able to work. And so I definitely wasn't working 40 hours a week, you know, maybe, maybe 30.
like a good week, know? Like, you know, like, okay, like if I'm, if I'm really getting after it, it was like 30 probably.
Taylor (33:43)
But that's cool that you can kind of have, you know, it's, have sort of some autonomy. You're kind of like a business owner in a way. You're like, I mean, like you're like a contractor, consultant, ⁓ where you can decide like yes or no. And that's really cool.
Erika Morris (33:52)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah, you're, you're, yep.
Yep. It is. And I would say that's, and I think that's a real benefit to this work, the drawbacks or like just by this work. mean, like being an independent contractor, it's like, you get to pick your own hours is the idea. It's like the idea of being a contractor. provide your own, you provide your own materials and you pick your own hours. But, um, so, and that's really helpful, especially when you have kids or something and
Taylor (34:10)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (34:24)
you know, in a normal job, you have a kid's doctor's appointment or personal doctor's appointment, and you have to like take time off or it's like, it feels complicated. And like, but you know, being a contract worker, you can be like, I can do whatever I want. Like I don't have to work today. Um, you know, of course, like there are like deadlines. Like I said, there are things you need to get done, you know, but that's on your own timeline. That's on your own. Like, okay, when can I get that done? You can work the weekends or whatever, if you want. Um,
Taylor (34:45)
That's right.
Yeah.
I love that.
Erika Morris (34:54)
Yeah, so I think that yeah,
Taylor (34:54)
So in your current role, go ahead.
Erika Morris (34:57)
yeah, so I that's it I was just gonna say yeah, I think it can be really helpful
Taylor (35:01)
Yeah,
in your current role, you, how long did you work there?
Erika Morris (35:06)
I worked there until I moved to Washington. I moved to Washington in February of 2024. So two-ish years, two and a half years.
Taylor (35:12)
So was like two-ish years.
Yeah,
and then moving to Washington and what was your starting salary then?
Erika Morris (35:24)
Yes. So now, now in Washington, I have two different roles. I am doing two different contract roles. one is through the Washington state office of public defense. you know, I think a really interesting thing moving from Colorado to Washington is like realizing like, wow, like things operate completely differently here. Like,
Taylor (35:51)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (35:52)
How tax dollars are used here versus in Colorado is just different. Not worse, but just different. And like how social services are approached, how like, you know, like where money is put is interesting. So the Washington State Office of Public Defense, they have really specific programs ⁓ to serve like fairly specific populations.
In Colorado, this agency I was a part of, it was tax dollar funded, ⁓ taxpayer funded, but it was a lot more general and a lot more like attorneys, social workers, any kind of case, any kind of ⁓ client we could work with. ⁓ Washington State Office of Public Defense serves really specific kind of...
There were different programs to serve really specific populations. So one of my roles is with this new program. It's called the acronym is SPAR, Simple Possession Advocacy and Representation. It's a program where it's a very social worky. It's still like forensic social work, but it's different than the mitigation role where I'm working with people who have substance use possession, public use charges.
and doing resourcing for them, case management, that kind of classic social work stuff. ⁓ And they just have to have these kinds of charges. And the idea is same thing, I'm working with their defense attorney, their public defense attorney, and the idea is attorney refers client to me because client has some broader needs that they need some support with.
Taylor (37:46)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (37:46)
they
could use some help with. And so very social work, you very like case management-y, right? That's one of my roles, but still in the defense world. And then my other role is with the, in Pierce County where I live, it's the Department of Assigned Counsel. It's their local public defense office. In Washington state, different than Colorado, like it's very patchwork-y. Like each jurisdiction has their own set up.
their own system for addressing public defense. And they're mostly on the hook for paying for it too. It's kind of a problem. It's definitely a problem. But ⁓ so it means like definitely public defense is underfunded here, I would say generally. ⁓ But yeah, so this local public defense office, ⁓ I'm doing some mitigation work for them. It's a lot less structured. It's a lot less.
hand holding, like people holding my hand. ⁓
Taylor (38:44)
Yeah, like if you didn't have the experience that
you had before, would be a little bit more difficult. Yeah, okay. Okay.
Erika Morris (38:48)
It would be impossible. No, I've had like no guidance. I've had like
no guidance. was just this one is very much they're approaching it like you're a professional, you know, Yeah, you should know what to do but like they're hiring me on as a contract like, you know, like add like a case by case basis, right? Like as a contractor you do you provide the service for us. We'll pay you for it That's end of our relationship, you know Yeah
Taylor (38:58)
You should know what to do.
Yeah.
Wow, I see. Versus like in Colorado,
was kind of like, you're like, you're within the team and we can, we can show you the ropes a little bit, but I mean, know, caveat that you had like the internship there, but it sounds like they were a little bit more supportive environment where if you were a new social worker, they would train you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Erika Morris (39:17)
Yeah.
Yes. Exactly.
Yeah
Yes.
Yes, exactly. You're a new social worker. They train you over there. They do not train you here. But that being
said, I actually think, know, I'm, you know, if people are interested, they can be in touch with me if they live in Pierce County here around here. But like, because actually I got in touch with that Department of Assigned Counsel on a whim and I just said, I didn't see anywhere on their website or anything that they have social workers on defense teams.
I got in touch with them, asked if they have mitigation specialists. They were like, no, not really, but we do have investigators who do some mitigation work. Let me put you in touch with our investigator, our head investigator. So I was in touch with the head investigator and he's like, yeah, we do need people to do mitigation work. Sure. And so then I got put on this like panel is what they call it. and it's basically, I think I'm actually the first social worker on this panel. It's like,
all investigators who do mitigation work sometimes, you know, and I'm the one that's like purely mitigation, which is a new thing for this agency. But I think, like I was saying, I think it'll be picking up across, you know, across Washington. I know in Seattle, in the King County office, they have a whole ⁓ mitigation team, a whole social worker team. They're a lot more evolved than this one is. Like they have, they have, they have,
Taylor (40:33)
⁓
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Erika Morris (40:59)
Yeah, they're really established. They're all salaried social workers doing mitigation work in King County, Seattle. But here in Tacoma, they're not as set up. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taylor (41:11)
That's cool. Yeah, not so much. Yeah. So what's
for the two roles that you're in now, what are you getting paid hourly?
Erika Morris (41:21)
Sure, yeah. So for the one, the the spar one through OPD, through Washington State Office Public Defense, it's, I get 45 an hour, similar, right? Where I, you know, it's based off of how much work I'm doing. But that one's a lot more hand holding. That one's a lot more like I have a supervisor, like I have, you know, like it's a lot more structured and we're a team, you know, that kind of thing. But it's still contract.
Taylor (41:48)
Okay. Okay.
Erika Morris (41:50)
And then, ⁓ and then my other one ranges depending on the severity of the case or like the severity of the, of the charges, right? I don't, think that, I think that's from like an, investigator point of view. think from a mitigation point of view, it's like, why would you pay me differently based off of what the charges are? But like, I think for investigators, that kind of structure makes sense, I guess, but I'm technically like paid as an investigator.
Taylor (42:12)
Yeah.
Erika Morris (42:19)
at DAC, but I get paid it's a range of like I think it's like 75 to 95 or something in there per hour and Yeah
Taylor (42:29)
Okay. That's pretty good. That's really good. But how many hours are
you putting in for them a week?
Erika Morris (42:38)
That's the thing is that I've had in total since I've been there, which I started in kind of April, I would say. ⁓ I've been on a total of five cases, four. And it varies of how much I'm putting in per week. It's the same like I was saying before, as far as like, know, in the...
I feel like I didn't actually explicitly say this before, but in the beginning you're requesting records a lot and that can be time intensive. ⁓ And then just meeting with client can be time intensive. But what's more time intensive is at the end when you're writing the report and doing all that, that can be a lot of time. I don't know. It really varies, but like 10 hours a week probably, maybe more, maybe 15.
Taylor (43:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Erika Morris (43:32)
That's what
I'm aiming for is like not because I'm trying to balance both roles. So I want to be able to yeah like do both of them fairly. So ⁓ yeah 10-15 hours a week but it depends on how many cases I get on.
Taylor (43:37)
Totally.
I mean, that's, that's reasonable. Yeah, that's, that's pretty
decent for like being paid that high. ⁓ I don't think you answered this before, but like how on average, how long are your reports? Just, I'm curious how long.
Erika Morris (43:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Yes, right.
Yeah, sure. could even, I don't know if this would be interesting because I could send you like a redacted report, but ⁓ yeah, like, wow, 10 pages, something like that. 15 pages, something like that. Yeah. Yeah, they're lengthy. You like consolidate all this information like of like their whole.
Taylor (44:11)
⁓ my gosh, I was not expecting that. Okay. That's, that's, yeah. That's intense. ⁓
Erika Morris (44:23)
life and yeah and separated into like mitigation themes and like you know and yeah it's it's a lot and you're yeah basically putting together all this different information that you collected to like tell this story.
Taylor (44:27)
Wow.
That's fascinating. And this is, this is cool. think, yeah, it seems like there's a lot of potential here for a social worker. So, you know, I think you had kind of a unique path where you had this internship that was like forensic social work, but for people who are, you know, didn't have that experience, but are curious about, maybe exploring this path, like, like, how do you get in?
Erika Morris (44:45)
Yes.
Okay.
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes,
I would say, yeah, like if you can get in when you're in school, that's great. Like I did, think, you know, I think that's great. But if you're, if not, you can doubt, you know, I would say they're like ADC in Colorado, there's agencies you can be hired on after, you know, you graduate. and, and like they'll train you. So I would say get into, you know,
Taylor (45:12)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Erika Morris (45:33)
versus my current role, but like get into an agency where they'll train you. And that definitely exists. Yes, exactly. I would say a public defense office. yeah, and the, know, I think across the country, like how defense is operated and just how it's kind of...
Taylor (45:39)
Yeah, like a defense agency. Yeah, okay. Okay.
Erika Morris (46:02)
separated I guess the different offices it varies I think but you know in Colorado like they had public defense offices for each jurisdiction and then and then they had this alternate defense counsel which which handles all the conflict cases so if there's two people who are involved in the same crime
and the public defense office, the local public, they handle, they represent one of the people, then there needs to be another office that handles the conflict because the same office can't represent both of the people. So that's why the alternate defense counsel is present, but usually there's those two kinds of offices present in each jurisdiction, in each state because there needs to be conflict counsel just in case there's two people who need to be represented. ⁓
So, yeah.
Taylor (46:58)
What
other roles? So there's the mitigation specialist. What's ⁓ your role? Yeah, the title of your role at the rap. What's it called? The spar. Yeah. What's your title there?
Erika Morris (47:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, the spar, it's
like social service worker. like, yeah, it's not even, for that one, you don't need your masters to be in it or anything. Also side note in Colorado, they had a role that was ⁓ like a resource advocate is what they called it. And that was for social workers who don't have their masters.
Taylor (47:16)
Social service worker, okay. Yeah.
Erika Morris (47:38)
Of course, you could have your master's if you did. for bachelor level social workers to also work on these defense teams and do ⁓ resource navigation for clients as well as release planning, right? So that can also be really helpful for the court for them to see like there's a plan. We're possibly gonna release this person into probation.
but we don't want them to go right back into the lifestyle they were in before. Like what's the plan? What are they, where are they gonna live? What are they, what's their job gonna be? Are they gonna do some kind of training? So anyways, there's that kind of ⁓ role in Colorado for bachelor level social workers. And this one that I'm in now is also, you you can be a bachelor level social worker for sure. mm-hmm.
Taylor (48:06)
Yeah.
So when you're, when you are looking for those jobs, you just
like, I don't know, you just type in public aid defense agency, you know, in Google or your, you, I feel like you're a little bit more, you kind of know what to like, what websites to go to. You're looking at the city websites or like what tips you have there.
Erika Morris (48:41)
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
would say, I would say looking at the city websites, I would say getting in touch or like looking at the public defense offices and seeing how they're structured. I, when I was initially coming to Washington, I'm like, they'll have the exact same setup as Colorado. Like they're both progressive States, which I would say this is like, this, this way of looking at defense is, is, is definitely a more
progressive perspective ⁓ and actually putting resources and money into having social roles on defense teams. It usually means the state has to be fairly ⁓ progressive and open to this. ⁓ It might not, yeah, where you are, but ⁓ I think there's different, I think across the country there's opportunities. anyways, I heard about this Washington State Office Public Defense.
Taylor (49:22)
That's a good point, yeah. Yeah, so it might not be available really everywhere.
Erika Morris (49:42)
statewide office. I was like, hmm, wonder what they do. Okay. Like I looked into them further. and actually one thing I did do that really led me to my current role at Spar is I posted in a like PNW Facebook, social workers, Facebook group and said, and like described like the kind of work I was doing in Colorado and
Taylor (50:06)
You're in a PNW
social progress Facebook group. I'm in the PNW. What Facebook group is this?
Erika Morris (50:09)
Yeah.
I don't know, I think it's called PNW Social Work. Yeah, I'll send it to you. Yeah, I, you know, now, side note, I think you could probably definitely find more, you know, social workers to interact with, right? Like to be in touch with, like, chat with on there. Yeah, and so there was one person on there, I just posted like, a little bit about what I was doing in Colorado and just asking, what do you all recommend? Where should I go for this? ⁓
Taylor (50:14)
Yotha send it to me. my gosh, that's so funny.
Yeah, yeah, to chat with, for sure.
Erika Morris (50:41)
this kind of work or what you know are there other options you know and I some people reply this one woman was really proactive and like getting in touch with me and saying you know telling me about where she works and then she was like you know what I would do also if I were you she's like there's this person who works at OPD Office of Public Defense and like ⁓ and get in touch I would get in touch with him and ask him about it so I did and then that led him said he said he told me
that this, the SPAR program was going to get started. And he's like, and here's the person who's starting the program. She's getting it up and running. You should be in touch with her. So I got in touch with her and then she was like, yeah, yeah, we're hiring social workers. Great. Yeah. Like come on board. and, and so, yeah, so I would say look at statewide offices, look at local, ⁓ like how public defense is being provided locally and in your area and see about if they have.
Taylor (51:17)
I love that, I love that.
That's awesome.
Erika Morris (51:39)
mitigation specialists, if they have social workers. ⁓ And like I did here, possibly get in touch to ask them if this is a thing that they do. ⁓
Taylor (51:52)
Yeah, I love that you, I love that you put
yourself out there and was just like, Hey, I'm moving here. I don't know. This is what I did. Like anyone have any tips? You know, I think that's, that's been kind of a theme with just people on the podcast and it's just, you know, us social workers, want to help other social workers. And, ⁓ sometimes you got to put, put out your, I don't know, but just put it out there and see, and see what happens. So I love that.
Erika Morris (52:00)
Is this a thing? Yeah. yeah. huh.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
He
Yeah, put it out there, see what happens. yeah, and I think, you like I said, you know, asking the questions like you're on the right track in any, I would say any attorney, any defense attorney, you know, working in criminal defense, this won't be a foreign concept to them. Like they'll get that this is a thing where like holistic defense, I think is becoming best practice, like I said. So like the suggestion of social workers being on defense teams, I think generally they'll be like, yeah, that's.
Taylor (52:43)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, totally awesome. Well, this was great. Thank you so much, Erica, for for joining us and sharing your salary. mean, and about forensic social work, that's super fascinating. And one of the topics that I feel like we just didn't really talk about in school. I mean, you did, you know, you kind of did. But yeah, something that I never heard about. So really appreciate you being here.
Erika Morris (52:52)
We understand what that means. Mostly.
Yeah, of course. ⁓
Taylor (53:21)
right, everyone. Thanks for listening and we'll be back in two weeks.