27. Sports Social Work: Supporting the Whole Athlete with Christine Mosher & Ros Wilson

Taylor (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Social Work to Wealth podcast. I'm Taylor here with my co-host Faith and today we are super excited. We're gonna be talking about sports social work. Here with us we have Ross and Christine and yeah, we'll just get into the conversation. We'd love for you guys to introduce yourselves and just tell our listeners who you are and what you do. So Christine, we'll start with you.
Faith Voss, LCSW (00:12)
Yes.
Christine Mosher (00:27)
Okay, great. Thanks, Taylor and Faith. I'm Christine Mosier. I'm a clinical social worker based in Massachusetts, and I specialize in athlete mental health. I have my own private practice where I specialize in treating athletes of all ages from youth up to adult. And I also have a side business with our friend Ross, who's here, and we are the co-founders of Athlete Wellness Consultants. And we provide education, training, and consultation to
athletes, coaches, and teams on different issues regarding athlete mental health and wellness. So we've been doing that together for a couple of years now. We've done some podcasts and some presentations and ⁓ some webinars to promote different topics related to athlete mental health and wellness.
Yeah.
Ros Wilson (01:23)
Hi, I'm Roz Wilson. ⁓ I'm a clinical social worker based in Colorado Springs. I'm from the UK originally. I've been practicing as a social worker both in the UK and in the US for the past 18 years. So as Christine kindly introduced, I am co-founder of Athlete Wellness Consultants. And really our mission is to educate, ⁓ inform and support athletes and the team around athletes.
in regards to mental health. I have a small private practice as well and I work for a company called All Points North and we specialize in rehab and recovery and have a specialist program for pro athletes. So I am one of the therapists that works ⁓ with the pro athlete team as well.
Taylor (02:15)
interesting. Could you talk a little bit about your just pathway into getting into this field?
Faith Voss, LCSW (02:17)
So interesting.
Christine Mosher (02:28)
I can start if you like. ⁓ So I became a social worker later in life and went back to school and got my masters in social work ⁓ when I was about 40 or so. And I did many different jobs within the social work field, working with homeless and families and children, substance abuse and addiction and chronic mental health. I moved into the nursing
home space and was a social worker in nursing homes for many years and I really enjoyed that. But at some point I was thinking about well I wonder if there's a way of my my passion for sports to be combined with my passion with social for social work. So I've been a lifelong athlete and I've played sports my whole life. I played soccer at Boston College and after college I continued to play soccer and coach many youth and women's teams. Yeah and I coached at Bourne
Faith Voss, LCSW (03:01)
Hmm.
Hmm.
wow.
Christine Mosher (03:27)
High
School, which is a high school down here near where I live on Cape Cod, Massachusetts. And I started the Cape Cod Women's Soccer League, which is still going today, 20 years later. So ⁓ yeah, yeah, thank you. And ⁓ so I was thinking, geez, I really love social work and I really love sports. I wonder if there's some kind of way to combine these two passions. So I did a little Google search and I found ⁓ the Alliance for Social Workers in Sports. And this is a national organization.
Faith Voss, LCSW (03:30)
Okay.
Wow.
You
Christine Mosher (03:57)
of social workers who are also interested in athlete mental health and other issues regarding athlete wellness and social justice issues in sport. And I had a conversation with the president at the time, Matt Moore, and he was just so inspirational and I felt like we were talking the same language. I was so excited to find somebody else who was thinking about the same issues as I was thinking about, caring about the same
Faith Voss, LCSW (04:09)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Christine Mosher (04:27)
problems that I was caring about. And so I joined this group, the Alliance of Social Workers in Sports, and I started attending their symposiums. And they have an annual symposium where we get together and we talk about clinical issues impacting athletes. There's a lot of researchers in this group who do a lot of research on sports social work. And there's college professors who teach courses on this topic. So it's a really great way to meet other sports social workers.
Faith Voss, LCSW (04:53)
Hmm.
Christine Mosher (04:57)
working in the field and expand my knowledge and also the opportunity to do presentations. So I started doing some of the presentations at the symposiums and that has been a really great experience for me as well to get out there and talk about the topics that I'm passionate about. So that's how I got into this. Yeah, that's how I kind of got into this thing is sort of like weaved into it and just kind of then found this group and jumped all in. Yeah.
Faith Voss, LCSW (05:15)
That's awesome. Yeah.
Amazing, Ross,
Ross, how about you?
Ros Wilson (05:28)
Yeah, so I started my career in the UK as a social worker working with children and young people in the care system. So children, young people that had experienced complex trauma. And then I moved into the fostering and adoption field before I then moved to the US in 2022. And alongside kind of my career in social work, I had been heavily involved in sports, been an athlete for a long time, kickboxing was my sport.
competed for Great Britain for many years and traveled the world competing and then I retired at the age of 34 due to injury and kind of during that time I'd had a parallel I was competing all of the time still doing social work and then I found my way to working in the Olympic movement and so in 2016 I worked in the Rio Olympics in the sport of boxing in athlete care and
Faith Voss, LCSW (06:27)
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (06:28)
I did the 2020 Olympics and I became a technical official for the boxing and I did kind of every competition in between. ⁓ So alongside competing and coaching. ⁓
Faith Voss, LCSW (06:37)
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (06:41)
for our kind of national squad. then was able to kind of like work internationally with athletes while still doing ⁓ social work. So I've had a really kind of unique pathway. And then when I came to America, I learned about ⁓ the Alliance of Social Workers in Sports. And I was like, wait, we can do this as a job. I can combine the two. So I joined the Alliance and everyone was really kind of very welcoming. And I learned more about kind of sports social work.
So I kind of progressed from there. ⁓ I worked in a university and tried to specialize in working with the athletes in the counseling center at the university. And then me and Christine, think maybe two and a half years ago, kind of started athlete wellness consultants with the idea of kind of using all of our experience as social workers ⁓ to kind of like promote and educate ⁓ athlete mental health. ⁓ And then in my, kind of then moved into
my current role as a clinical social worker being able to kind of like offer that support at the pro level as well so yeah I always say I've had this kind of like parallel journey in both sports and social work and it's just been kind of a dream come true to be able to combine the two. ⁓
Taylor (08:03)
is so, so cool. I love that. Can you talk about how you define sports social work? think people are familiar with sports psychology, differences, similarities.
Christine Mosher (08:17)
Yeah, think a lot of people when we talk about sports, social work, no one's really sure what that is or what that means. People do have a general idea of what a sports psychologist does. It's more widely known. ⁓ Sports psychologists are more focused on athlete performance and helping athletes overcome any mental blocks that they may have that are ⁓ keeping them from performing at their peak level and overcoming anxiety, sport performance,
anxiety, things like that, where a sports social worker is more concerned with the athlete as a whole human being. So if an athlete is having difficulties in their personal life, any mental health issues or stressors that are going on behind the scenes that may or may not be related to their sport, sports social workers kind of look at the whole person. And we are not as concerned about sport performance. I mean, yes, we do help
athletes with that piece, but mostly we're looking at, know, what's going on behind the scenes, what's going on with your family, what's going on with school or your job, are there any stressors in your relationship or are you struggling with any eating disorder issues or... ⁓
or substance abuse issues. So we kind of delve into various mental health aspects of the athlete's life that may be impacting their performance. But as I said, we're kind of looking at the whole picture, the whole human being and the whole system that the athlete is working in.
Ros Wilson (09:48)
I agree wholeheartedly
with Christine, but I would add, like I recently did ⁓ like a CE event around TBIs, like brain injury with athletes. And I presented with both a psychiatrist and a psychologist. And really, I think it's important to note that ⁓ we can really compliment each other. So it's not like, do I have a sports social work or do I have a psychologist? There's just the,
more multi-professional working we can do, the better for the athlete. And I think that's the point of sports social work, is it's like we're not just focusing on one area. So we know that, you know, there's absolutely a lot to be said for kind of like performance based psychology, but if you're kind of ignoring ⁓ what's going on for that athlete in the context of their kind of systems, ⁓ then we're kind of like missing that whole part. I, you know, the best work I feel is like when we're
working collaboratively, collaboratively, that's a tough one for me, in terms of being able to kind of like share those experiences. So I would just, it's been stressed that it's not like one or the other. And as clinicians, as licensed therapists, working kind of one-on-one with clients, as both sports, social workers, psychologists, LPCs, ⁓ it's really about like the experience that you bring and the knowledge,
knowledge that you have of working with athletes because they're such a special clientele to work with.
Taylor (11:24)
I'm so glad you brought that up because I was thinking, like, I wonder if you guys work collaboratively with them or is it one or the other? And as you're explaining it, it makes so much sense because that's what we're trained in terms of person and environment and, you know, kind of looking at this whole picture and what makes up this person. I could see probably a lot of advocacy. You know, I'm sure we'll get into just like advocacy on behalf of the athlete. Yeah, that's super fascinating.
Ros Wilson (11:53)
Yeah, and I give you the example of like that with dealing with an athlete that has a TBI like a sports psychiatrist or like a neuropsychologist, it can be really helpful to kind of get that initial information about like where the individual may be having some impairment or being affected. And then like as a kind of from a social work perspective, we're then able to look at how is that going to impact return to play or how does that impact your academics if you're a college student and
do we support you with kind of maybe the grief and loss of ⁓ you know coming from some sort of injury like this so you can kind of see how working together can really inform how that holistic care works.
Faith Voss, LCSW (12:39)
That's amazing. I'm learning so much right now. I'm literally just like soaking all this in. This is so fascinating. I've always been interested in sports, social work, have asked, like I've been asked for, know, do you have a referral for somebody who works in sports, you know, social work or provides a type of care? And so this is so fascinating to hear like your individual stories and how you guys provide care and also that you're both athletes kind of then having that lived experience and being able to, I think, meet the need of your clients so well with that background.
⁓ It's fascinating. So I think we want to shift a little bit into more of the clinical side of your work. So the first question we have is what unique mental health and wellbeing challenges show up most often in your work with athletes? So Christine, maybe we'll start with you.
Christine Mosher (13:25)
Sure, no problem. I would say primarily anxiety. ⁓ Anxiety because athletes have just so much pressure on them from, especially in this ⁓ stage of our society, we glorify our athletes and with that comes a lot of pressure and expectations. ⁓ athletes really feel that from various sources, whether it be their coaches, their teammates, their
families, perhaps they're on a scholarship in college and they're worried about you know maintaining that scholarship, they have to keep up our certain GPA to stay on their team.
know, even kids, youth sports have a lot of pressures on them. Kids start at such a young age and specialize in one sport and they get kind of pushed into this club sport system and that creates a lot of pressure on kids where they feel like they have to stay in that sport and play that sport year round and go to weekend tournaments. It costs a lot of money, you know, spend a lot of time. And so it's just a lot of pressure. So would say ⁓ anxiety would be the number one thing that I see in my athlete clients.
And then secondarily, I would say probably with female athletes more ⁓ the body dysmorphia and body image issues and eating disorder ⁓ types of ⁓ behaviors that seems to be very highly prevalent in sport too. A lot of that again has to do with these societal pressures too of trying to maintain a certain body type. And when you're an athlete, you you have to maintain your athletic
body type for whatever your particular sport is. ⁓ But for female athletes, for example, they might also struggle with their aesthetic body versus their athletic body. Women in our society are kind of held to this standard of what a body should look like. And sometimes female athletes don't fit into that societal norm. And it can cause a lot of internal struggle. ⁓
you know, trying to make sure that they maintain their athletic body for their specific sport, which might cause, you know, to be more muscular or could, you know, want you to be thinner to, you know, suit your sport. And some of these body types that we need for our sports don't always fit into this societal norm of what a female body or male body should look like. So I would say maybe eating disorders and body image issues might be the secondary issue that I see most commonly.
Taylor (16:03)
I also, Christine was curious if you could talk a little bit about the, ⁓ you know, when they're injured, I know that, you know, you had mentioned that if they're injured or they're unable to play a sport, like that can really impact their, you know, identity and other things. I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that.
Christine Mosher (16:21)
Yeah, that is a huge issue. One of the things Ross and I have in common is that we understand that athlete identity because we've been athletes before. And we still are, right? At we're still athletes. But when an athlete really strongly identifies with their athlete identity and they get injured, it can be a real blow to their self-esteem, their ego, and sense of self-worth. Because if you're no longer able to play your sport because of an injury,
then it really calls into a question, know, what good am I? What good am I to my team, to my family who's depending on me, my performance? You if I can't do the one thing that I've spent my whole life training myself to do, then I don't know what else to do with myself. And that can cause a lot of depression, anxiety, substance use disorders. you know, injury can play a definite role in the mental health of an athlete. And that can come at any age.
You know, and it can come later in life if you're an older athlete and you get injured and you can't play your sport anymore and then you don't know what to do with yourself. You're really struggling a lot with how to spend your time. You've spent so much of your life to be to excel at your sport and now you're at this stage of your life where you don't even know what to do with yourself and your time. And so it can be a wreak a lot of havoc on an athlete's mental health when you have an injury.
Faith Voss, LCSW (17:53)
Yeah, Ross, do you have something to add or answer that question as well?
Ros Wilson (17:57)
Yeah,
I think with the original question I was going to talk to kind of the identity piece, but I think like I primarily would say that I work with a lot of grief and loss, which is really tied into the identity. ⁓ But when whether it's through retirement or injury ⁓ or, you know, transition out, you know, I think it's like five percent of athletes continue after college, for example. So I would say grief and loss
and identity is my number one and then secondary to that is the symptoms that come with that you know and a lot of anxiety and depression but really that kind of you know if I take for example like my NFL guys you know they've started playing football from the age of four and then they're in high school in college make it all the way to the NFL and then for whether injury or you know early retirement they then leave and it's like
happens now like who am I and so a lot of the education that we try and do for preventative care is about like who are you as well as an athlete what is your identity ⁓ alongside that and if there isn't anything else how do we build that resilience up so that when you know sport is no longer with you you are then able to kind of you know carry on so for example I retired when I was 34 I had a diagnosis of after
I had one really good leg and I spent like 20 years kicking and ⁓ for me I kind of had my social work but I kind of like transitioned really quickly into putting all of my efforts into coaching and working at the Olympics and it was like I was able to kind of deal with my kind of grief and loss of this big part of me that was all of my adult life an athlete ⁓ and kind of transition that into what can I do with my knowledge how can I put all of this energy that
have to like help other athletes so for me I you know in some respects it was an easier transition because I had other things going on ⁓ but you know that whether it be injury, retirement, know loss of interest there's still that that big grief and loss part that comes with working with athletes.
Faith Voss, LCSW (20:19)
That's fascinating. it's so interesting to hear you guys talk about the body image piece and then also just the amount of time and energy goes into being an athlete. your whole life. It consumes so much of your energy and your day. And then also it's monetized, right? So your income, and sometimes you're supporting your family. And so there's so much that goes into that. And then that transition, so much pressure. Yeah.
Taylor (20:43)
So much pressure, so much pressure. It's like you're saying societal
pressure to perform, the family pressure, the body image pressure. mean, like that sounds so intense.
Faith Voss, LCSW (20:50)
Family pressure, yeah.
Yeah. Complicated.
And also, I just thought of the piece of your body as a woman being muscular for your sport. then what if you are really successful and you're asked to do advertising? Well, then now all of sudden you have to fit into this really sleek, cute like.
body, whatever that might look like, and how disruptive that could be internally for a young athlete. I kind of wanted to shift the question a little bit, but more about what unique mental health concerns arise in international or Olympic environments. kind of more these, you kind of alluded a little bit to NFL players. When you reach that really elite level, do you see changes in mental health concerns? how would you guys maybe approach that question or answer that question?
Ros Wilson (21:46)
Sure, I'm actually enrolled on the IOC diploma in elite athlete mental health at the moment. I chose to do that just out of my kind of interest in working with that level and working in the Olympics has been such a unique experience, I must say. The International Olympic Committee. Yeah, so they actually run a diploma in working with athletes in that elite level and
Taylor (22:02)
And what's the IOC?
Okay. Okay.
Ros Wilson (22:15)
If you think about Olympic sports, they are very different to professional sports because many Olympic sports are, you know, it's you don't, you're not a professional athlete. You're not getting paid full time. So there are many athletes ⁓ that are still, you know, needing to balance earning an income whilst they're trying to like, you know, compete as the best in the world and different countries has different funding schemes, different sports hold different wealth in different countries.
So in the US, everything is privately funded, for example. ⁓ Whereas in the UK, we use the national lottery to fund certain sports, but only sports that are performing well. there's all of that that's involved before you even get to the athletes, right? Because if you don't have the funding, if you're having to still go to work, but you're having to travel, you can't afford to pay for your physiotherapy
Faith Voss, LCSW (23:05)
Wow, wow.
Ros Wilson (23:14)
or your ⁓ nutrition. So that, I think, you separate maybe the international level of Olympics and pro sports, right? Because that is one pressure for Olympic sports. Are you funded? And most people, when you get to a certain level, yes, you might get sponsorship deals, but that adds extra pressure, as we talked about. What does that look like being a sponsored athlete? And what is your expectations? ⁓
still think there's a lot of kind of stress around that in terms of like Olympic level competition and like varies very much internationally from country to country ⁓ and then in terms of pro sports I think that you add the pressure in the more recent years of being in the media being in the limelight if you speak to a lot of high-profile athletes that will talk about mental health for example Simone Biles after the
2020 Olympics she talked about like having to drown out all of that negativity on social media where people were saying she's let her country down and things like that and so I feel like you know, you know a lot in the media recently about football players Sadly, we've had several losses this year ⁓ So I think when you get to that pro level of sport you have that added pressure like societal pressure social
media and you know last week another you know quarterback had their home raided whilst they were playing that's happened two or three times this year and so and not only is it an envision of privacy but now everyone knows where that player lives so you know I think you could do a whole podcast on its own about like what are the societal pressures that come with being an athlete and again what are the systems that
Taylor (25:10)
Hey.
Faith Voss, LCSW (25:10)
Yeah.
Ros Wilson (25:14)
into that so whether it be media funding support ⁓ so yeah Christine I'll let you kind of speak to that as well.
Faith Voss, LCSW (25:15)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Taylor (25:16)
Yeah.
Faith Voss, LCSW (25:20)
Hmm.
Taylor (25:22)
Yeah, I also think
it's interesting when you're as you were talking about it. It's like they are kind of balancing the pressure of performance and being an athlete. Like that's a whole identity in itself. And then once you get to this certain level, ⁓ then you're a celebrity also. And that's a whole other kind of societal, you know, thing that people are having to manage.
Faith Voss, LCSW (25:48)
or
or
a role model. Sometimes we throw a role model in there like you're the country's hero. It's like, what, what are we doing? Mm-hmm. What? Yeah. I'm a person.
Taylor (25:52)
Or a role model, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, like personal mobiles, you're letting our country down. And she's like, I am just a, you know, I am just a, I'm just
a person and I'm a gymnast and like, whoa, like that's, that's a lot.
Christine Mosher (26:14)
Yeah, I think that's important to remember that just because somebody is an elite athlete doesn't mean they don't also have the same human feelings that everybody else has. And when I started first working with athletes, I was surprised to learn that I thought when athletes reached a certain level, professional or Olympic, that they would have this support team that kind of covered all the bases. Some financial advisor or a nutritionist or their own therapist.
sports psychologists and help, you know, having a whole team together to help them with all these different areas of their life. But I was surprised to find out that that isn't necessarily the case. ⁓ Athletes have to seek out that extra support if they want it. But it's not something that just comes with the package, you know. So a lot of young athletes, you know, become pro. They can become pro at a young age, 18, 17, 18, 19 years old. And, you know, they're given lots of money. And now with the NIL deals in college and stuff,
You're giving kids tons of money and they're just expected to know how to manage all of that and they don't. And so there's just a lot of pressure that comes along with having money and you just expect that, oh, well, someone's gonna help them figure all that out, but that's not necessarily case. And it actually can set you up for financial abuse and people taking advantage of you. And you think you can trust somebody to help you manage your money, but they're taking advantage. So young athletes are being put
in very vulnerable situations, either financially or mental health-wise, and all that stress and pressure, and they don't necessarily have all the supports to lean on. And even if there are supports available, I think it's hard for athletes to know who to trust and who can be confidential, and that is a big piece too, especially when it comes to therapy. You know, we have clinical social workers and sports psychologists out there who are willing to help, but sometimes athletes still have that
stigma of reaching out for help and also knowing who to trust. you know, if I tell somebody my personal story and I'm a famous athlete, are they going to share that? You know, it's hard to know if you can really trust who you're talking to. Or some teams have their own in-house ⁓ therapist and some athletes don't seek that person out because they're afraid of sharing something that might be shared with the coach or the coaching staff. And that might jeopardize their involvement with the team. So even though there might be some
supports out there and there be there's more supports out there now than there were. Athletes still are not accessing all the help that they need unfortunately. So we're still trying to figure out how we can best help this population, how do we connect our athletes with the right help, the people they know they can trust, they know they can help them not only in this area with mental health but other aspects of managing their lives as well.
Faith Voss, LCSW (29:08)
That's fascinating. And I think just naming the confidentiality piece is so important for athletes because you're right, they're vulnerable. They could be taken advantage of. so protecting confidentiality is so important. ⁓ Last question in this section, but what therapeutic approaches or modalities have you found most effective with athletes?
Ros Wilson (29:31)
Yeah, so I am, I mean each therapist is individual, right? But I am very big on somatic therapy because as athletes we really do feel, right, with our body. We've had, you know, been brought up to really almost over focus on our body. I was in a weight cut sport, for example, and I literally spent all of my adult life on some sort of diet and weighing myself nearly every day and, you know,
knowing, feeling my injuries, getting rehab when I needed to. And so I've kind of transitioned that into like my therapeutic practice because I think it's a way to help people also understand. So when I'm first like assessing people, you know, I'll ask them to think about the worst injury they ever had. Okay. Well, I ruptured my ACL and then what happened? Well, I had an operation. Okay. And then what next? Well, I worked with my PT and I worked with my S and C coach and you know,
there were bumps in the road but we could see measurable progress and I kind of say well you know therapy is a little bit like that too you know we have to start somewhere and we're going to go on a journey together and it's going to be ups and downs but you know part of that is the rehabilitation process so I use a lot of DBT with my clients a lot of distress tolerance skills because of kind of that somatic element so I find you know some of the
my like progressive muscle relaxation just to give an example my athletes can identify with that a lot more than say just putting on a mindfulness video and watching it because you are thinking and you are feeling with your body so for me and I do a lot of art therapy personally I feel that like working with athletes it really helps them kind of connect with that with kind of what's going on and a lot of people will feel their physical
symptoms of anxiety or depression, know, feel those physical symptoms within their body and so I think if we can start to kind of like address that, start by meeting physical with physical and then kind of address the kind of like underlying mental health issues that are there as well. So I would say that like on a kind of practical basis using like DBT, CBT skills, but I always come from a trauma-informed lens because there's a couple of things you'll notice. One,
the trauma of retiring, leaving sport, you know as I talked about the grief and loss element of trauma but too often you will find that you know athletes are human beings and they they will come with other you know baggage there are other things that have gone on for them and so it's not just about addressing okay you know this player has been injured we need to address that but then when we start to kind of really dive into the therapy
I would be using a trauma-informed approach. Me and Christine actually did a presentation for NASWA, the National Alliance of Social Workers. And one of the questions was, as a social worker, what new skills do I need to learn? I'm like, well, actually, do you work with clients with grief and loss? Do you work with clients that have experienced trauma? Well, yes. OK, how do you do that? Well, then let's put that in the context of having the knowledge of what athletes go through. But actually, a social
workers we are like perfectly primed to work with this clientele it's just having that additional knowledge about what goes on for them.
Faith Voss, LCSW (33:11)
Amazing, Christine.
Christine Mosher (33:14)
Yeah, I think that you know Ross said it perfectly and I think again we come back to this This idea that athletes are whole human beings ⁓ and we have to look at that whole that whole system primarily I use cognitive behavioral therapy and So I help athletes kind of think about what what is it that they're ⁓ what are their stressors? What are your thoughts about what's happening right now in your life? That's causing you this stress and
Can we see if there's any cognitive distortions that might be ⁓ fueling your thoughts and feelings about this issue? And perhaps we could look at maybe we could see if the things that you're thinking about might be ⁓ reframed in a more positive and ⁓ accurate statement. So helping athletes to kind of notice that perhaps the way I'm thinking about this is not ⁓ accurate or helpful. Maybe I could try to think about this situation in a
a more positive, hopeful way. And that I think is helpful for athletes to kind of reframe and have a more hopeful outlook for solving whatever issues they're going through. I also do a lot of mindfulness work and trying to help teach mindfulness techniques. And it's very basic stuff, know, like deep breathing, closing your eyes, taking some deep breaths, listening to a guided meditation. If you can't stay focused on, you know, repeating a word or
or a mantra in your mind because you get too distracted and you can't stay focused on that, then use a guided meditation. Just plug in your earbuds, find a good guided meditation on any of the apps. I use the Insight Timer app, it's free. There's plenty of others. You can go on there, find a guided meditation for anxiety, depression, whatever it is that you're struggling with and just listen for five or 10 minutes and just doing that act can really calm you down.
Turn down those voices in your head that are kind of driving you crazy and help you kind of relax your mind and your body ⁓ I do promote yoga because yoga again is like a mind-body ⁓ Exercise that helps you kind of stay focused in the moment a lot of times, but you know anxiety comes from ⁓ Thinking about the past or worrying about the future and so you're not in the moment so trying to help people like do things and activities like yoga and meditation and breathing to
to help them stay focused in the here and now.
⁓ I also promote going out and taking a walk in nature. know, we're so tuned, we're so in tuned into technology and sometimes that can enhance our anxiety. And so sometimes just doing a simple act of like taking, you're putting your phone away and going out for a walk in nature and being present in the moment and noticing the sky, noticing the air, noticing the colors of the trees, noticing the birds and the sounds. So we forget to do that sometimes and it's such a simple act and it can really kind of bring us back to the
present and into ourselves and make us realize like hey I'm just a human being I'm a part of this world all this nature that's surrounding me right now is also part of this world and I'm connected to it ⁓ and it helps kind of ground people and helps kind of bring some peace some level of peace so those are the techniques that I use ⁓ and I do also like Ross said some of that you know the mind-body techniques the progressive muscle relaxation Ross is right when she says you know athletes can really identify and I relate
to that mind-body connection because that's so much of what athletes do. ⁓ But doing it in a way that's ⁓ helpful for your mental health, not necessarily for your sport performance.
Taylor (36:59)
And the cognitive behavioral piece, I would also imagine that there's a lot of work with kind of negative self-talk and trying to, yeah, just kind of support them in that positive self-talk because there's this pressure and all of the things that we've talked about. Just curious kind of the level that you are seeing that with athletes.
Ros Wilson (37:25)
Yeah, I mean, the other day I was doing some like window of tolerance work like in my group session and
like a lot around emotional regulation but there is like we are our own worst critics anyway i think as humans and as athletes absolutely and i think ⁓ for a lot of our athletes there's there's still a very rigid style of coaching that goes on across amateur interpro where there is a lot of negative talk anyway and so ⁓ people then begin to kind of like identify with you know the styles of how they're being coached so i think then you're
you you're taking someone that maybe has some of their own insecurities, their own critic and then adding into that like maybe quite a negative experience of coaching styles and so that means ⁓ you know when we're looking at kind of like reframing and kind of how we talk about ourselves we also need to to address like how we've been spoken to in the past and how you whether that was the right way or not you know.
And so I think that kind of comes with the whole piece. But yeah, a lot of positive psychology, identifying strengths, again, identifying skills outside of just being a athlete can really help with that, creating a kind of new norm and a new positive sense of self-identity. that's, again, kind of grieving the identity that was leads on to the opportunity to create
a new identity and be able to kind of like think more positively about yourself but again I think it's that's you know by a psychosocial of like it's not just what you what you feel internally it's what's kind of been projected on to you for a long time.
Taylor (39:23)
Yeah,
yeah, that's a really good point. So we want to talk a little bit about ethics, boundaries. I'm curious, Ross, like what ethical dilemmas do you notice that show up uniquely in sports settings?
Ros Wilson (39:38)
Yeah, so I think Christine already spoke to the kind of confidentiality piece. So ⁓ where I work, we have a residential treatment center and we have a lot of athletes that go there. so like the we have athletes and non athletes. And so we're expecting individuals to sign confidentiality agreements, ⁓ you know, within that setting. And I think that's important for both setting boundaries for ⁓ other clients, but also for practitioners
as well and then I feel that that gives some kind of safety and security to individuals that are being treated and I think it's important to communicate that and as therapists we you know we always start our sessions right with what is HIPAA and what does that mean and having our clients sign that and I think that's just really important for people to know what information will be shared and where ⁓ and I think especially when you're doing group
work with individuals, it's about kind of promoting that culture of like respecting individuals ⁓ confidentiality as well. So I feel like that's been a big part of kind of like especially doing kind of larger group work is like promoting and understanding confidentiality. So I think I'll speak to that first and then Christine I'll let you kind of jump in on that one.
Christine Mosher (41:06)
Yeah, agree. Confidentiality is definitely a big ⁓ issue that clinical social workers and sports psychologists and therapists have to deal with. For a long time, we in this profession have been advocating for ⁓ clinicians to be embedded within athletic departments so that athletes could have more direct access to ⁓ the therapy and mental health support within their teams and within their athletic departments because what happens is, say, for on-call
college campuses for example, ⁓ typically an athlete who would be seeking support might have to go through their college ⁓ counseling department, which the whole entire college has access to. So, you usually that's backed up. It's hard to get an appointment and you have to wait a long time to be seen. people are still, you know, cognizant of confidentiality. Seeing an athlete walk into the counseling department might still cause a problem for some athletes. They might not want to be seen. Like if you're the star
quarterback of the football team, you might not want to be seen walking into the school's counseling department. So, ⁓ you know, that's why we advocate for people to be embedded within the athletic department so that they can access them, you know, right within their reach and, you know, there's less wait time. You get to know the person who's part of the athletic team, just like a trainer would be or team sports nutritionist. ⁓ However, the downside of that is sometimes athletes might worry about
that confidentiality piece again and if I share this issue of what's going on with me my mental health are they going to share this with the coach and is the coach then going to know about what's going on with me and is that going to impact my ability to play on the team and therefore again you might have that barrier of that athlete might not seek the help that they need because of that worry of the confidentiality piece. And on the other side of things it's like an athlete does share something with the sports psychologist, sports social
clinician and then the coach wants to know like hey what's going on with you know
Taylor (43:10)
was just thinking about
that. Yeah.
Faith Voss, LCSW (43:12)
Same, yeah.
Christine Mosher (43:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Ros Wilson (43:14)
Yeah.
Christine Mosher (43:14)
What's going on with Joe? Is he OK to play? What's going on? Is he mentally all right? Or is there still some issues going on with his family that I should know about? And you can't talk about that. You know, you have to as a clinician, we take an oath, an ethical oath to keep confidentiality unless somebody is in danger of harming themselves or others. And a coach might want to know information that's confidential. And so it's really tough. You're put in a tough position where you kind of have to set your boundaries with that coach and say, like, hey, I'm
Faith Voss, LCSW (43:29)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taylor (43:39)
Right.
Christine Mosher (43:42)
sorry, I can't share that with you. If you want to have your own conversation with your player, feel free to communicate with them directly, but I'm sorry, that's confidential. I'm not able to share that information with you.
Faith Voss, LCSW (43:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taylor (43:56)
Do you you get
Faith Voss, LCSW (43:56)
Mm,
kiss.
Taylor (43:57)
that a lot? Do you get that a lot from from coaches that kind of like, hey, what's going on? What's going on?
Ros Wilson (44:05)
I guess I would.
I think speaking to that point personally ⁓ in terms of how important that education piece is first because if you are going to be doing that work with athletes then you really need coach buy-in, you need the team buy-in and so it's like you really have to set those boundaries first because otherwise what's the point in doing it? I think also acknowledging that that can be anxiety making for coaches and athletic doctors.
directors because if they've recognized someone needs some support they've referred on for support and now they kind of feel like maybe a little bit in the dark about that. So I think one piece of that is like making sure that the team around the athlete are educated on like different types of mental health conditions, what treatment looks like, walking them through like what may happen in treatment so that they feel less anxious and also I think like when you are doing individual therapy with athletes it is like encouraging.
that conversation so you're not saying you know go back and tell them everything that happened in the session but like how can we help you communicate to your coach like what you need or like what is going on for you in therapy so that you know they're not asking all of those questions that they're able to you know share what they feel you know have some of that control back I guess to share what they feel able to so I think it's you know that kind of like whole picture but it certainly is a worry for a
Faith Voss, LCSW (45:31)
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (45:36)
athletes like we've kind of identified quite a few times that something might get back to coach and so I always frame it as like well you can control this you can decide what goes back to coach right you you can make that decision and on occasion you know that people have done kind of like you know joint sessions or group sessions or facilitated like conversations as well it really just depends what ⁓ what your role is kind of on the team if you're kind of there
Faith Voss, LCSW (45:37)
Mm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (46:06)
to educate and support the team or if you're doing individual one-on-one therapy.
Faith Voss, LCSW (46:11)
That's fascinating. And hearing you guys talk, I'm just like, yes, this is social work. This is so social work. The systems and the way that they all interact, you have the larger system of our culture and our environment. And then you have this little community of coach and then the athletes. And it reminds me of school social work, actually. Teachers referring a kid in school therapy. And then the teacher wants to know, well, how things are going and how can I support them? And you have to be this gatekeeper.
It's just fascinating to hear you guys talk about it because it feels very similar to like you're working within this system and you have to protect confidentiality. And I think the pressure is probably a lot more than, you know, a teacher wanting to know, a coach wanting to know, there's a lot more pressure there. But it's fascinating. It's just really cool to hear you guys lay it out and talk it through.
Christine Mosher (47:00)
Yeah, think that, you know, Ross talked about the education piece and that's kind of where we came together to build athlete wellness consultants because we realized that, you know, coaches can be great at coaching their sport and but they might need some help on how to navigate these types of situations. So educating coaches and athletes and teams and athletic departments about these topics and how to communicate, how to identify mental health issues. Yes. What does therapy look like? What does that mean for my player? How do how do we
Taylor (47:00)
Yeah.
Christine Mosher (47:30)
create a more positive and affirming sport culture where these types of conversations can take place in a normal way, normalize the conversation and nobody feels stigmatized or ⁓ looked down upon because they're asking for help or even a coach. Like they should feel you know empowered to to know like I know what to do in this type of situation. I feel better about like having this knowledge so that I can help my team you know be the best individual and human being and
athlete they can be and create a positive team dynamic where everybody feels safe and ⁓ secure to talk about these types of issues. So that's why we started athlete wellness consultants, just realizing that there's a need for this education for coaches to be able to help them. Because I think the young athletes that are coming up today really want that. They want to be able to seek help. They're not as ⁓ stigmatized about seeking therapy these days. I feel like that has improved a lot over the
years, but I still feel like we have a ways to go and I think we think that educating athletes and athletic departments and the whole athletic system about this topic can be really helpful and empowering for athletes.
Ros Wilson (48:42)
I would just say that for us, I think it's about being proactive, not reactive. So I think it's that model, isn't it, of getting help when there's a problem, as opposed to doing all of the preventative work so that we can have early identification of concerns so that you're not waiting until someone's in a crisis to access mental health support. I guess as social workers, we want that in all areas, not just sports social work. ⁓
opportunity to do that here just by you know doing that education piece but it has everyone has to have the buy-in to it then it's not just you know the younger generation of athletes it's you know right through the kind of coaching team the ⁓ medical team and so on so yeah I think you know for me that's the most important part of like how how how can we be proactive so that we are preventing some of these like really more tragic situations that happen.
Thank
Taylor (49:43)
Yeah.
And you talked, so it's interesting that this education piece of educating, you know, departments and coaches. So this question is kind of like twofold. So I'm curious, how do you communicate with the coaches who are trying to prioritize performance over well-being and and just having that conversation because the performance is so important, obviously. And we all as mental health professionals understand that this well-being piece is too. So how do you talk about that? But then also, how do you support
the athlete when that is the pressure that they're feeling.
Ros Wilson (50:20)
I'll just speak to the first question. think that like you have to learn to speak people's languages and so in for coaches the you you talked about it then Taylor it's about ⁓ performance so it's like how do we sell this that actually this is going to improve your athletes performance like overall right because most people
Taylor (50:40)
Right, right, because that's what's important to them.
Yeah, right.
Ros Wilson (50:43)
Yeah, so most people
know that sports psychology, know, performance psychology is a thing now, right? We know that we you know, there's so much evidence, evidence both scientific and anecdotal about you know, you know mindset athlete mindset. ⁓
Faith Voss, LCSW (50:45)
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (51:00)
But if we're able to say actually understanding what is going on for your athlete as a whole, how that is going to then impact them. I think from an ecological point of view, you think about athletes that aren't able to meet their fueling needs because they don't have the finances, I just put that as an example. It's like we're able to speak to that to coaches to be like, if your athlete is actually able to access this resource, then we know.
because
⁓ science tells us a well-fueled athlete is a higher performer. So just to give that as an example, it's like, I think it's just about speaking individual's language. And I'm very mindful of that, like as a therapist, but also an athlete, it's like, where does it intertwine? We wanna be really careful of not using jargon, of making sure we're explaining, but I think it's a bit like working with kids, right? When you work with kids, you physically get down to their level when you're, you know.
your eye to eye, you're at their level, you're using the language that they know, it's like how do we adapt to our environment as social workers and so if coach is main priority and don't forget right a coach is a human being too and so often they are getting pressure like will they keep their job if their team doesn't win a certain amount so you know you need to see it in the context of like I think we paint coaches sometimes in a bad light but it's like this is an individual that have also
Faith Voss, LCSW (52:19)
Wow, wow, yeah.
Ros Wilson (52:30)
put their whole life into this, often retired athletes. So it's like, okay, well, how do we appeal to like what's going on for that coach, understand their pressure and how supporting their athletes in this way will actually benefit both the athlete, the team and the coach themselves. So I think it's just contextualizing, you know, what's going on for that coach and for the team and how it is beneficial.
Faith Voss, LCSW (52:32)
Hmm
Taylor (52:33)
That's so true.
Yeah.
Faith Voss, LCSW (52:41)
Hmm.
Ros Wilson (52:58)
I would say.
Christine Mosher (53:01)
Yeah, I agree with Ross, everything that you said that coaches are human beings too. And you're right, we have to kind of connect with them on their level and understand what it is that's important to them. also, like, yes, if they don't win, they may lose their job. But also helping them kind of shift their mindset of like, if I help my athlete as a whole human being and see them and help support them and let my athlete know that I care about them as a human being, you're going to get a better performance out of them.
know, athletes want to perform for coaches who care about them. And, you know, if you have a coach who shows genuinely and authentically that they care about their players, you're going to get players that want to work hard for you. So, you know, kind of helping coaches see that and understand that mindset can be really helpful and valuable. You know, sometimes the old school mentality of coaching is, you know, to be hard and tough and, you know, push athletes to their limits, which, you know, yes, you might get a great performance
out of that athlete, but you also might get a very angry or hurt or frustrated athlete that might not stick with their sport and might have some mental health issues because of that kind of coaching style. And you're not gonna get their best performance over time. So ⁓ it's just sort of help people to see things from a different perspective and be open to a different way of thinking about coaching styles, different way of communicating with your team that you can actually get a good performance out of your team and treat your athletes as ⁓
human beings that deserve kindness and respect as well.
Taylor (54:34)
Right. Yeah, it
Faith Voss, LCSW (54:35)
That's great.
Taylor (54:36)
makes me think about, you know, this is a workplace, right? And so I think in in any kind of traditional workplace setting, we talk about managers and, how the support that they can give their employees and encouragement and all of that kind of fuels their employees to, you know, have better performance or whatever, you know, so that's interesting, just kind of seeing it in that.
Faith Voss, LCSW (55:02)
Mm-hmm.
Taylor (55:02)
lens. Christine, I'm curious, like, this performance, you know, piece that pressure and how do you support the athletes and kind of like what kind of conversations do you have with them in terms of balancing their well being?
Christine Mosher (55:19)
Yeah, well first thing I try to do is validate, validate what they're feeling, what they're saying, what their stressors are and acknowledge like, yeah, you are under a lot of pressure. There's a lot going on with you right now, whether it be injury or whether it be family stuff going on or school stressors, whatever it might be, try to meet the client where they're at and validate what it is that they're saying to me that they're stressed out about.
⁓ Because sometimes like being heard and valued and validated is like very therapeutic just in and of itself Knowing that somebody's hearing me what I'm saying and cares about me and understands where I'm coming from is really helpful And then the next thing would be like sort of troubleshooting. How can we help you solve this problem? What are some of the things ways that you're thinking about bits that might be adjusted? ⁓ What are some things that you need to do to help improve your performance like let's talk about that like is there a reason why?
Why are you not doing your workouts? Are you having difficulty with time management skills? Do you have ⁓ extra responsibilities at home that could be delegated to someone else? does your mom know that you're feeling this way? Perhaps that you could share that with her and communicate with her about that. Perhaps she doesn't know that the things she's saying to you are actually stressful and not helpful. So things like that, trying to help the athlete problem solve and try to figure out ways that they can kind of solve their own issues and empower them.
them to feel more confident in being able to do things like that. Perhaps they couldn't ever consider having a conversation like that with their mom or their coach or something like that. no, they wouldn't be able to hear that from me. They would just yell at me or be mad at me if I talk about that. But I try to help them say, well, let's give it a try. Let's talk about some different styles of communication that you might be able to use that might be more receivable for them. So we talk about what phrases can you use? How can you say this?
a way that they might be able to tolerate better and they might give you back a better response. So just kind of troubleshooting, coming up with brainstorming together, collaborating with them, like, do you think this might work? Let's try this. And helping them feel more empowered to kind of solve some of their own problems and try things that might be outside their comfort zone. So, you know, people want to stay like where they're comfortable and stay where they're at. But sometimes that just keeps you stuck where you are and your problems don't get solved. So helping them kind of push outside their comfort zone.
Faith Voss, LCSW (57:23)
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Christine Mosher (57:49)
zone a little bit, tolerate that discomfort, and then help them see like, you know what, you got through that and you got to the other side and things are actually better now and help them validate that experience. You you tried this, it was really hard for you, I'm really proud of you for doing that. And now you're seeing the positive outcome of that. So a lot of positive feedback, a lot of positive affirmations and reinforcing the good things that they're doing to help themselves get better.
Faith Voss, LCSW (58:13)
That's great. ⁓ I really appreciate you guys kind of going through the details of what you say to athletes and how you kind of like phrase things. I think it's super practical for social workers who maybe want to get into this field or are interested in it. ⁓ We have about two questions left because we're aware of the time. ⁓ But the first one is about, you know, ⁓ equity. So in your work, are there gender specific themes that clinicians should be aware of when supporting athletes?
Ros Wilson (58:47)
I'm gonna...
start because Christine is like a great advocate and incredibly experienced in supporting females in sports and actually we recently ran a webinar about female athletes in sports and we're due to do one about eating disorders as well and I'm actually going to start on the flip side with the males ⁓ because one of the biggest things that I see is about the ⁓ culture like the cultural aspects of being a male athlete ⁓ and that is
very much around ⁓ the culture of not talking about mental health. That kind of like being the tough male athlete, how you're viewed in the media, how you're viewed by other people and seeing talking about your feelings as a sign of weakness. ⁓ And I think like certainly since I've started to work with kind of pro athletes it's really emerged as a significant issue for me that I see.
that athletes don't feel that they're able to talk about how they're feeling to ask for help because of this kind of like male stereotype of, you know, being tough, not talking about their feelings and also ⁓ not having kind of that role modeling because they are around other male athletes in sport. ⁓ And so I think we all know as social workers, as individuals that work in mental health, that there is a higher chance
of ⁓ males completing suicide and a lot of the evidence points to kind of the lack of both awareness and ⁓ kind of culture around talking about your problems. so I, for me, especially, you know, in the last three weeks, we've sadly had an individual die by suicide ⁓ who was a very active NFL player that we knew after
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:00:35)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Wilson (1:00:47)
had ongoing mental health issues. We've had ⁓ Jair Alexander come out in the last two weeks to say that he's like taking a step away because of both his physical and mental health and so it's so great that we are starting to have like advocates for male ⁓ mental health but I see that as being kind of the biggest issue I would say for males in sports.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:00:51)
Hmm.
Christine Mosher (1:01:17)
Yeah, and we recently had a presentation at the Alliance of Social Workers in Sports. have monthly clinicians meetings where we talk about clinical issues impacting athletes and we have guest speakers come in sometimes. And recently we had a guest speaker, Riley Nichols from NEDA, National Eating Disorder Association, who specializes in eating disorders in athletes. And he did a presentation on male athletes and eating disorders that was really, really
and impactful because I think that population does get overlooked. assume like eating disorders are for female athletes, but actually there's a lot of male athletes who struggle with that same issue, eating disorders, body image. ⁓ But also, you know, we talked about the female athletes. I think we're doing better now at recognizing the strength and empowered female athlete. We've got the National Women's Soccer League that is attracting big crowds of people. We have the WNBA, Women's National Basketball League.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:02:15)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Mosher (1:02:16)
that's really attracting a lot of attention. And so I think that we're starting to see that female athletes can be strong and powerful and also earn money as professionals. So all of this is great for empowering female athletes and young female athletes. However, it's still an issue. 75 % of female athletes aged 11 to 13 quit their sport. So we're losing a big population of female athletes at a young age.
around there, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, they start leaving their sport due to not feeling good enough, worrying about their bodies. So we're losing a lot of the female athletes at that age. So I think it's important for us to continue to empower young female athletes. There's a lot of great organizations out there that are trying to work on this. One of them is called Coaching Her that we're working with to help get that message out to female athletes. There's also another one sponsored by
called Keep Her in the Game, where they're trying to again reach out to youth sports teams and trying to get them engaged and involved with professional athletes so they can kind of have that role model and inspiration. ⁓ So I think that female athletes have come a long way and we're doing great, but I still feel like we have some ways to go to catch up with the male athletes. And also there's a huge population of transgender athletes that are very vulnerable that play sport.
This is not my area of expertise and I'm not an expert in the field, so I'm not going to act like I am one when I'm talking about it, but I am just going to say that I'm aware that this is a very vulnerable population. We also did have a presenter come to speak to us about this topic at the Alliance of Social Workers in Sports about the vulnerability and the bullying that happens in transgender athletes and a marginalized population that is very susceptible to self-harm and suicide.
Ros Wilson (1:04:09)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Mosher (1:04:16)
That is definitely another area that we need to work with and empower and support as social workers.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:04:21)
Mm.
Taylor (1:04:24)
Yeah, thank you for highlighting that.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:04:24)
Hmm. Yeah,
I appreciate that. That's good. The final question we have. ⁓ go ahead, Ross. Yeah.
Ros Wilson (1:04:28)
And I think, no, I was just going to
say, just remember as social workers, like we can work both on a macro level and a micro level at the same time. So, you know, it seems like a lot. But if you're talking about like informing change and educating a kind of a ⁓ kind of
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:04:39)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Ros Wilson (1:04:46)
larger level but then also doing the individual work. I feel very proud of my social work identity that we are able to work on both that micro and macro level and all of this knowledge really helps us able to do that. One by working one-to-one but two by working in that larger area and recognizing some of these cultural changes and inequalities that go on in sports.
Taylor (1:05:14)
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you both so much for this conversation. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do, where can they find you? ⁓
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:05:21)
Hmm.
Christine Mosher (1:05:27)
I have my website for my private practice, Christine A. Mosier, licsw.com. You can also find me listed on the clinician registry at the Alliance of Social Workers in Sports. So that's a SWIS.org. And then Ross and I also have our consulting group, athletewellnessconsultants.com. So you can find us out there and just get a look.
Taylor (1:05:55)
Yes.
Ros Wilson (1:05:56)
Yeah.
We're
also on Facebook and Instagram as athlete wellness consultants, AWC. ⁓ And we post our kind of regular, we run regular free webinars and information sessions. So we love having people reach out. ⁓ People often reach out to us to ask about how we got into sports social work and for, know, speak for both of us that it's, you know, something we're really passionate about. So we really appreciate and really enjoy the opportunity.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:06:03)
Okay.
Ros Wilson (1:06:26)
any kind of budding sports social workers I really encourage them to research the alliance of social workers in sport because there's something so great that comes from community right and we are definitely a growing community and I know for me finding A-Swiss was really a big gateway into ⁓ progressing my ⁓ work with athletes. ⁓
Taylor (1:06:47)
Yeah,
awesome. We'll make sure we put all those resources in our show notes. So thank you both so much and thanks, everyone, for listening.
Faith Voss, LCSW (1:06:54)
Thank you. ⁓
Christine Mosher (1:06:55)
Thank you