50. [CE] Financial Therapy 101: How to Talk to Your Clients About Money with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW

Taylor GIlbert (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Social Work to Wealth Podcast. Taylor here, and today we're going to be talking about financial therapy one-on-one. Super excited. And we have Lindsay Brian Podvin here to share all of her wisdom and knowledge about this topic. So super excited to have her here. If you just want to share with people like who you are and what do you do, that'd be great. Great way to start.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (00:24)
Thanks for having me, Taylor. as you mentioned, I'm Lindsay. I'm a licensed social worker in the state of Michigan, and I'm also a certified financial therapist. I've worked in many different areas in the field of social work, and right now I'm in private practice, and the bulk of my work is split between a small clinical practice, doing one-on-one work with clients, and then I do a lot of
Workshops and facilitations with different organizations and groups who want to help their employees or their coworkers, their colleagues, their friends, even understand the intersection of money and mental health. So I do a lot of financial psychoeducation. Financial mental psychoeducation is a better way to put it.
Taylor GIlbert (01:10)
How did you get into, you know, this this work? I feel like you've been doing this for a while and it still feels like a very kind of new concept to a lot of people these days. So yeah, how did you
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (01:22)
I I kind of stumbled into it. as I mentioned, my background is in clinical social work. And in my first job at a nonprofit, I was working with folks who were being who were refugees, being resettled into the US. And I was also making less than I did when I was a waitress. So all of a sudden, I experienced the impact of.
finances on my mental and physical health. I am very open that I had very well managed anxiety and depression. And all of a sudden those symptoms were flaring. It was impacting my ability to sleep, to stay alert. I was getting colds and flus all the time and really understanding the impact of money not just on what's going in and out of my checking account, but also in terms of how it was impacting my physical and mental health.
Which I understand is a very privileged thing to say. And at the same time, I felt like the way that we spoke about money, especially then, this was almost fifteen years ago now, which is why no, it was 15 years ago. Okay. It's officially, it's been 15 years since I've been done with grad school. I'm just gonna sit with that. but just the way that we spoke about money then, it's definitely improved, had been highly, highly individualistic. It's your fault if you're struggling. It's because you don't have willpower, you just need to
work harder and save more. But as a social worker, you know, I was trained to look at things through a cultural, a systemic lens. And as a social worker who specialized in mental health, I was also trained to think about things through a mental health lens. And I just felt like we were missing the mark. And I knew that I wanted to stay in the field of of social work. I didn't want to move into becoming a financial advisor or a planner. I I really loved the work that I did, but I wanted to
Expand it to better fit the reality that I knew myself and so many clients and so many people who aren't my clients were facing.
Taylor GIlbert (03:22)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like a lot of individuals in the financial space, it kind of started with their own journey and struggles with with it and then it just kind of becomes a passion. yeah. So for those who are new to this topic, how would you describe financial therapy? What is what exactly is that?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (03:42)
I have a couple of definitions I'm going to read because the the disclaimer for this CE course is that even though I'm a social worker and a certified financial therapist, I am not an affiliate or endorsing the organizations that I talk about today. I'm just sharing with you what exists in the landscape. So I'm going to read the Financial Therapy Association's definition of financial therapy from the first.
forum that they had in 2008. And then I'll read their current definition from 2026. So in 2008, they defined financial therapy as, quote, to promote a vision of financial therapy, which is the study of cognitive, emotional, behavioral, relational, economic, and integrative aspects of financial health. And now in 2026, it's a bit longer and a bit more, what's the word I'm looking for?
It's it's a bit more comprehensive. So the definition now is quote, a process informed by both therapeutic and financial competencies that helps people think, feel, communicate, and behave differently with money to improve overall well-being through evidence-based practices and interventions. The FTA, the Financial Therapy Association, is an organization comprised of professionals dedicated to the integration of cognitive, emotional,
Behavioral, relational, and financial aspects of well-being. End quote. So those are the technical definitions. To me, as a social worker and a financial therapist, I think about it as providing the cognitive, emotional, psychological, and systemic support around financial literacy so that people can take action on.
The steps that many people know they quote unquote should do or help them understand why it feels so complex to help dial down the shame and help to dial up the opportunities for them to make behavior change while feeling good about it. So I often define my work as less of how to make a budget and much more what's getting in the way, why does it feel so complicated? What are the emotions that are coming up?
What patterns have you noticed if you've started and stopped a budget in the past? So I'm really thinking about everything else that contributes to the actual knowledge or tool in the world of personal finance.
Taylor GIlbert (06:11)
Yeah. Thank you for kind of digging into that. Cause I I'd like you to talk a little bit more about the difference of financial therapy versus financial advising or financial planning. Like how do those differ.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (06:24)
So as a financial therapist, I stay in my clinical lane, so to speak, which means I am doing the things that I am trained to do, even though I'm cross trained as a financial therapist in some of the basics of personal finance. I am not credentialed to, nor do I, do things like create a personalized financial plan. I don't tell people
What investments to pick in a retirement peop in a retirement vehicle. I don't advise people on life insurance or different policies that they should or shouldn't have. I don't ever buy or sell anything for or with my clients. I'm not doing any of those things. I am very much staying in my lane of if you think about a trauma therapist, their specialty is helping people with trauma, but they have.
A breadth of expertise as a general therapist before they go into trauma therapy. So that's what I think about with a financial therapist work is you practice in your home discipline. So for people listening to this, it's most likely therapists, social workers, psychologists, et cetera. And then you have additional training so that you feel competent talking about money, but you're never advising or selling or managing.
Taylor GIlbert (07:41)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Definitely focusing on that like behavioral, emotional connection to money. Yes. Not the nitty gritty of okay, this is these are the numbers that you know you need to put away or whatever to get to this retirement goal or you know, et cetera. What are some of the things, topics that clients are bringing into therapy that they're struggling with?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (08:04)
man Taylor.
Taylor GIlbert (08:05)
I
we don't have enough time.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (08:07)
Anything that you can imagine coming into the therapy room can be impacted by money full stop. So whether you are working with somebody I I mean, I I I'm hesitating here because there is no domain that therapists practice in that isn't touched by money, especially in the United States, where money is so tied to
Access and safety, money is going to impact every single one of our clients. And I think a big misnomer is once clients have enough, they won't be stressed by money anymore. And I completely disagree. I think that money impacts all of us. Of course, it's going to be more chronically stressful for folks who are in that paycheck-to-paycheck cycle or even below that, they're actively in poverty. But for people who are doing okay financially or who may even be
You know, to top of the the financial food chain, financial stress doesn't stop just because your paycheck or your net worth increases. And that's a myth I think that we are peddled a lot in in the United States, this idea that if you have more money, it will solve all of your problems. Of course, it solves a lot of problems. I am not discounting that it doesn't, it's not a magic wand.
Taylor GIlbert (09:25)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I I like just that framing of regard honestly regardless of what what anyone is coming in to talk with you about, money is likely influencing their lives and and struggles that they're going through, you know. So yeah, this is a financial therapy one on one this is a th financial therapy one on one conversation and your niche is financial therapy, but I think
many of us who are doing therapy can use these tools while we're talking with individuals because I'm sure people listening to this see this come up in in their work. So yeah, I'm yeah, super glad that we're having this conversation. How do you feel like the financial stress impacts mental health?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (10:13)
Financial stress impacts our mental health because it impacts us at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is in our country, you need money in order to have access to food, shelter, clothing, and medicine. When we think about how money impacts our stress, if we don't have enough money or we don't have the skills to continually manage our money, if we are earning enough.
It's of course going to impact the things at the the bottom, right? So we're we're thinking about all of the stress that comes along with any sort of chronic stressor. Having stress temporarily, as we know as therapists, is a normal part of our life and our body is responding in a way that it is supposed to, but with chronic stress, that's where it impacts other things in a longer-term way. So we know that financial stress might.
make you anxious in the moment, but it also could literally exacerbate existing anxiety disorders or exacerbate a depression diagnosis or exacerbate OCD, bipolar disorder, any sort of disorder can be exacerbated when you have financial stress. And what we also know is that there's a bi-directional relationship between mental health and money, specifically the
The one that comes to mind is this two-way relationship between depression and debt. We know that people who have clinical depression are more likely to have debt. And we know that people who have debt are more likely to meet criteria for clinical depression. And when we think about this as clinicians, it makes a lot of sense that if a person has clinical depression, they are struggling with sleep.
They are struggling with activities of daily living, they are amotivated, they can't focus, it is likely going to impact the way that they earn a living. And on the other hand, if somebody maybe was predisposed to depression and they are in debt, we have such a strong narrative in our country that debt is bad. And that if you have debt, then you are bad. And so it makes perfect sense to me that a person would internalize having debt as
Shame, right? I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm not smart, whatever that internal dialogue is saying, and almost unmask a clinical depression diagnosis that may not have shown up. So financial stress impacts everything, but it absolutely as clinicians, we need to be aware of how it impacts our mental health.
Taylor GIlbert (12:48)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I wanna talk a little bit kind of more about this individual experience and then wanna go into just how this can impact family, you know, family dynamics relationships. But I think you were kind of getting to this money scripts and the money beliefs. yeah, can you talk a little bit about that? You know, our money story and just kind of how those things develop and and how you kind of think about that.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (13:13)
Yeah. So I'll take a step back because the way that we typically approach a financial stressor in the US is the way we approach a lot of systemic issues. We make them an individual problem when they're really a systemic problem that is impacting individuals. So we see this all the time as
You know, think back to that first social work job when a lot of my work in advocating for my clients and helping them navigate the system was doing things like making sure they had access to SNAP benefits or making sure they filled out the correct form so that they could get free bus tokens. And a lot of the prerequisites for financial support is like, for example, if somebody were to fill out a form in order to get emergency.
financial services so that they could pay their rent, we often say, before we give you this money, you have to sit through a 90-minute class on how to manage it. Right? We we tell people, it's the it's the same thing when we're talking about an an unhoused person and we're saying, well, we will help you get off the street if you tell us that you applied to 10 jobs first. We assume that if we give people the tools to implement,
Then everything will change. But the problem is again, going back to that hierarchy of needs, we cannot turn off that financial stress in the example of a person who needs emergency financial assistance to pay their rent. If we say, learn how to manage this money, if that money is immediately going to go to making sure that they are staying housed, right? And that layers on this victim-blaming mentality, it can impact again.
a lot of the cognitive distortions or the negative self-talk that a client might have. yeah, that that's kind of the the prerequisite. So, how this ties into the money scripts and the money beliefs is a lot of therapists may go, okay, well, step one is we have to understand your money beliefs. And I think as clinicians, we need to kind of meet our clients where they're at, right? If a client is in an active depressive episode.
You may not start with cognitive behavioral therapy, right? You might first get them to a place where they are a little bit more stable so that then you can move into reframing their thoughts and feelings and behaviors, right? You might first set up some sort of crisis support team of can your roommate take you to work when you are feeling too depressed to drive yourself there, right? We might first do those things.
So I would say first make sure that your clients are okay enough financially to be able to take in the biopsychosocial side of money. So money scripts and money stories, we often use those terms interchangeably. I will say that with money scripts that was developed by Brad Klantz, I wanna say in 2014-ish, when you look at that study of how those scripts were developed, they were overwhelmingly developed with a cohort of people.
Who were all white and 80% male. I so I think it's really important. And they were all actively seeing financial planners or financial advisors. So to me, it's not a super representative sample. And at the same time, this is a new and emerging field. So we have to take what we can get as we expand on it. So money scripts or money stories are these internal subconscious beliefs that all of us have about money that may shape.
How not only we think about money, but what we feel like we are able to do or not do with money. Research points to us being able to, by the time we're about eight years old, we more or less have made a decision about what we think money is. So if we rewind back to what was going on in my early childhood, who did I soak up money messages from, it can give us some.
Really good insight as to why we or our clients may behave the way that we do now as adults because that inner dialogue or inner money story or money script is driving a lot of those financial decisions. So, an example I give is maybe you grew up in a household where things were okay financially, but you weren't allowed to talk about money. If
Something came up like, so and so is going on a vacation. Why can't we go on a vacation? You are met with that's not polite to ask people about money. Or if you are in the grocery store with a parent and you want to add something to the cart, instead of saying, we're not making that choice today, or we already have XYZ thing, you are shamed for wanting to add something to that to the grocery cart. So or the shopping cart. So then that
Internal script could become it's not polite to talk about money. And if I ask for things above and beyond my basic needs being met, I will be met with a no. So how do those scripts shape the way you move through the world? You may have a harder time advocating for a raise for yourself at work. You may have a hard time talking to your partner about money.
You may have a hard time telling your friends, hey, I can't afford to go out to that five course dinner, right? Because you've been conditioned to believe that talking about money is wrong and impolite. So we can kind of see how those early exposure, that early exposure to money impacts why we do what we do now. And there are all sorts of money stories that run the gamut from you know, money doesn't grow on trees to you can't take it with you. So you might as well spend it while you're here. And
All of those things can shape the way we engage with and behave with our money.
Taylor GIlbert (19:07)
Yes, yes. I'm curious about how do you I mean, I know we're gonna get I I wanna get to practical things later for cl clinicians to really use, but I'm just curious now that we're we're talking about the money scripts piece, what kind of things do you ask people to kind of uncover this, you know, these beliefs or scripts?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (19:29)
It is very rare that I say to a client, What do you believe about money? Or what's an internal money script? And they just like spit something out, right? They just know. Often what I ask them is a series of questions around what their current money behaviors are and how they think or feel about them. So I may ask, you know, tell me what it was like the last time you got a paycheck. What were your behaviors? Were you checking your
credit account or your checking account multiple times. Did you feel I I would not feed these things to a client, but just for the purpose of today, I'm just sharing. Like I would want to hear, are they feeling excited, relieved, anxious? Are they engaging in a lot of checking behaviors like checking their bank account? Are they engaging in a lot of spending behaviors where they're going out to dinner right away? Are they working on paying off a debt and they're moving that money right there?
Do they not even think or feel about it? And they're closing their eyes and ears? And I would kind of listen for those same types of things in different scenarios. So that one is what happens when you get paid? How does that feel? What do you think? And then similarly, with what happens if you lost a $20 bill? What would you think? What would you feel? Trying to discern what is my client's relationship with earning money, spending money, losing money, or making a mistake with money.
talking to other people about money, what how does their relationship with money show up when it is in the family versus out of the family? I'm trying to really listen for any sort of pattern that I can hear around what their money story may be. And then over time I may ask them the the way that all clinicians are are able to do, I might reflect to them. It sounds to me like
There's a pattern of feeling fearful around money. And it looks like avoiding talking about money or looking at money. How true or false is that? Or how close or far is that from what you experience? So that's usually what I'm trying to do is to help connect the dots with their early childhood by understanding well, what's happening for you now?
Taylor GIlbert (21:43)
Yeah, yeah. I love how
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (21:44)
Mm-hmm.
Taylor GIlbert (21:47)
do you f think these, you know, just money in general influences our relationships and the family dynamics and, you know, friendships and and all of that?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (21:57)
Ditto to this other answers I've given. Money impacts all of our relationships. And I think the biggest issue, regardless of where you are on the income or net worth spectrum, is pretending that it doesn't. And I see a really interesting shift that happens with clients, like in their late 20s, early 30s, where if they met their primary group of friends around the time of college, where people
Even if they are from different socioeconomic statuses and different classes, they are more or less playing the same financial role. So most people that you are kind of creating these friendships with in that point in time, you you share this. Again, it's it's a little bit fake, but this socioeconomic status where you're often
Thinking about where can we go on Thursday nights for the cheapest pizza and what can we do on Sunday that will be the most affordable? we're cramming six people into a hotel room on spring break. And then what happens towards those late 20s, early 30s as people's financial paths have started to diverge and there isn't a good opportunity to talk about, my gosh, now we are in very different socioeconomic classes.
We don't even like saying the word class here in the US. We like to pretend that it doesn't exist, right? That's a whole other taboo. But it impacts those friendships. And I've had so many clients, Taylor, who make assumptions about what their friends are or aren't earning, what they are or not spending money on. And because we don't have a lot of good modeling for how to talk about money, a lot of these friendships will kind of fizzle out or fade out without even having a conversation.
Right. It'll look like one person who's maybe earning more or maybe isn't, but is more comfortable going into debt, right? We don't know, who is inviting the other person who is earning less or isn't comfortable spending money in that way, but they'll invite them on dinners out, on vacations, to concerts, things like that. And eventually the person who doesn't want to spend their money in that way or can't spend their money in that way, instead of saying,
No, I can't afford it, or no, that's not something that I'm prioritizing right now. They just ghost. They don't respond. And what happens over time is this friendship drifts apart because the person who's making all these invitations is assuming, this other person just doesn't like me anymore. Meanwhile, the person who's saying no is making all these assumptions that this person won't want to hang out with me if I make a suggestion to hang out in a different way. So that's like one little snippet of how I can see it show up in relationships.
But it absolutely impacts romantic relationships. It impacts parent-child dynamics, both you know, school-aged children and also parent-child dynamics, adult child with an aging parent. It impacts dynamics at work. It impacts dynamic all these different interpersonal dynamics, much like I said earlier. Like if you can think of why a person might go to financial therapy, you can think of why a person might struggle.
in terms of relationally when it comes to money and why they might want a financial therapist.
Taylor GIlbert (25:10)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, w while you're talking about it and just really I mean, it's the the theme here is that money impacts every facet essentially of our lives. Right.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (25:22)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Taylor GIlbert (25:24)
It's just a really it's really surprising that this conversation isn't really brought in into our graduate programs for us to
really, you know, grow some skills around talking about this piece. I think we as social workers are able to and you know, therapists and and counselors, like I don't want to I must we're social workers, but anyways. you know, looking at the person and environment and really kind of like looking at this whole picture. And yet this piece around the money conversation isn't really something that we're really, I don't know,
digging into when it is so integral and everything. I often think about I w I would love to do some study, which this would be impossible, but like how many times do we actually think about money? You know? Just how
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (26:14)
Yeah.
Taylor GIlbert (26:14)
many I feel like it's for me it's it's a c it's constant. Cause it's like, do I want to go do this? Do I want to go do this thing? Do I want to buy this? Do I you know, I feel like all of a a lot of the decisions I'm making in
in my life are, you know, revolve around money. So I'm just yeah, I think I think that's really interesting that like this larger it's a larger taboo topic in our society, right? In the US specifically. and that's kind of seeped into our programs as well. But I'm I'm curious about your opinion as to why it is so taboo in our society.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (26:52)
Taylor, Taylor, Taylor.
yes. When I was in my MSW program, the only time we spoke about money was in a death and dying class when we were talking about things like a durable power of attorney for health care and for finances and for helping patients through the financial components of end-of-life care. So
Just to like, you know, if I were an analyst, I might say something like, Isn't it interesting that the only time we talk about money is within the context of death and dying in an academic sense? Like that's how we treat it, as is something that like it will only touch us once, like around the time we die. And it couldn't be further from from the reality. So the question of why is money so tabooed.
You said as a society, I'm curious, as a society or as like clinicians, I think there are two answers there.
Taylor GIlbert (27:55)
Let's
dive into both. Let's let's start with broader society. Let's start with broader, broader society.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (28:00)
we don't like talking about money in the US because then we would have to acknowledge the reality that there have been systemic inequities built into our country. And we don't like doing that. We don't like talking about race, class, economic differences. We have been sold the myth of the American dream that anybody can make it here, meaning you can have your
Home and the white picket fence and the two and a half dogs and or two and a half kids. I said dogs because I'm child free. and your annual trip to an amusement park if you just follow these rules. But that is not true. It has not been true for a very long time, and it's actually getting harder to have upward mobility, meaning to move from a lower class or a lower middle class into lower middle or middle class.
Or from middle to upper middle or upper middle to upper class. It has gotten much harder. Since the 70s, when we look at our wages, they have essentially flatlined when we adjust for inflation. so we don't like talking about money in the US because then we have to acknowledge all those things. And you and I are talking during a time where history is quite literally being erased and rewritten in.
Some of the places that are supposed to hold on to history and accuracy, such as different museums, I think it really highlights that we are so uncomfortable talking about the fact that our country was built on an incredibly racist and sexist and exclusive set of policies. So
How does that look to you and I today talking to our friends and to our clients? It might look like that, depending on your friends and clients. but oftentimes it looks like the things that I mentioned. We don't talk about money, it's rude, it's not polite. But I I think we have to bring those systems into play because without acknowledging them, we can't really move forward, in my opinion.
Taylor GIlbert (30:09)
Yeah, absolutely. And then the kind of impact of all of that into the you know, our social work and and mental health, culture, I think it shows up in all those ways too. But I'm I'm curious from like your experience and perspective, yeah, what's going on there.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (30:27)
Yeah, it's so I'll I'll speak about social workers, but I can imagine that this is very similar with marriage and family therapists, counselors, etc. But the landscape of social workers in the US as of 2025 is disproportionately made up of women. When we look at compensation for social workers having I'm talking about master's level social workers, these are folks who've had
you know, master's level training, when we're talking about social workers compared to other mid-level healthcare providers, such as physicians assistants and nurse practitioners, our pay is not just modestly lower, it is much lower than others with the same types of educational requirements. And we have really normalized this idea that if you are in a helping or healing profession, you do it because you don't care about money. How I can't tell you how many times I heard in my classes
You're not in this because money's important to you or ha ha, you know you're not going to make a lot of money. Right. Right. Like that's kind of
Taylor GIlbert (31:30)
And it's like it's and it's like funny, right? Like ha ha ha right we're not, you know, it's it's and and that's that's the w piece of the issue where it's like we're we're just making it as a joke and you know, kind of brushing it off and
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (31:44)
We we joke about it and we also poo-poo people who make more money, Taylor. Like I know that I I can think of an example of a social worker who came in to do a guest lecture and I believe they worked in a school system and they said this is pretty close to verbatim again, it's been fifteen years, but they said social workers who go into private practice aren't real social workers.
And what they meant by that was that they are prioritizing financial stability over burnout. so we we joke about it, but we also demonize people who absolutely make other decisions to care for themselves. So it is shocking to me when I was coming up in the field of social work, it it felt like we were only talking about self-care.
Everything was self-care, self-care, self-care. Make sure you're sleeping, make sure you're eating, make sure you're moving your body, make sure you're meditating, you know, all these things. But we never spoke about financial self-care. Never. Right? And I think it's so important that we acknowledge that we are often experiencing very similar financial stressors to the types of clients that we serve. Right?
Taylor GIlbert (32:53)
Yes.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (32:55)
And that makes.
Talking about money, even more awkward, right? If you are, you know, I mentioned shoot, I was making less money with my MSW than I was when I was a a server. You know, what does that mean? I I'm supposed to wear this as a badge of honor. I'm supposed to be doing this because I'm so selfless. Like that could be a meaning that I make of it. Or the the way that my brain took it was, Lindsay, you you wasted your privilege. I can't believe you're struggling here. What's wrong with you? Figure it out, get your act together.
So I think as social workers, we collectively, I I think we need to do a better job of advocating for living wages for ourselves. I mean, truly the the idea that there isn't like a social workers union kind of blows my mind.
Taylor GIlbert (33:42)
I know. No. Like
yeah. And like we will we will burn down I mean we're not we're not burning down anything, but you know, figuratively right systems and barriers for the people that we work with. And I feel I feel like there's there is a growing movement for us, you know, with us kind of being like, No, we we need to look inward, we need to care about ourselves, we need to put ourselves
first so that we can show up in the way that we want to, which I love. But yeah, it is kinda wild that we don't have a social union. So
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (34:14)
Yeah. Yeah. Any union organizers out there?
Taylor GIlbert (34:18)
Ha ha
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (34:19)
You've got a very active group of people.
Taylor GIlbert (34:21)
No, seriously. Yeah. I I I appreciate just that you're in this in this work. And I think a a lot of people I've noticed by just me sharing about my own journey and talking about debt, people are really feeling, you know, just seen and validated of like, my gosh, finally someone is talking about this and that you know, giving people permission to care about it. And I think that's the other piece too, like you were saying.
we are we demonize, you know, or there's this like moral hierarchy. If
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (34:53)
Yes, yes.
Taylor GIlbert (34:54)
you care about money, then it's like, then you're not in it for you're not in it for the right reasons. Right. Right. when what I would love is for us to kind of collectively care about our our our community well being, our our c our collective financial well being, you know, and maybe it looks different for y for you than it does for me, but
just wanting all of us to be financially well because that's that's gonna impact, like we said, everything and also make it to where we can sustain working in this field and not burn out.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (35:28)
Yeah, I think there's a big fear among social workers in particular, but you know, many people who work in the mental health care field is for for a group of people who understands nuance really well, we have a hard time accepting nuance when it comes to money. And this idea of, I want to pay off my student loans in a shorter amount of time, suddenly we lump that person in with a billionaire. And they are completely different.
But like, I mean, I remember Taylor when I got like my first nice car, I was so scared to drive it to work. I would like park it in the back. I would walk around. I didn't want people seeing me get in my car because I didn't want anybody to make assumptions about what I thought about what they might think I think about myself, right? so we we I can't remember the tweet right now, but there's a tweet that's like
Eat the rich does not mean your neighbor with a BMW. It's like there there's so much space there, but we we really, really struggle to advocate for ourselves the financially. Yeah, we just we do.
Taylor GIlbert (36:36)
Yeah, that's so true. Okay, I wanna get into kind of some practical
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (36:41)
Yeah,
Taylor GIlbert (36:43)
you know, not everyone's gonna be a financial therapist, but I think like we're saying, this conversation can be really important in a lot of therapeutic spaces and even if you're not specifically focusing on financial therapy. So I'm just curious, like how can therapists begin talking with their clients about, you know.
money with without feeling like they're they have to be financial experts themselves.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (37:11)
Taylor, I keep doing this. I'm gonna back up and then I'll go forward.
Taylor GIlbert (37:15)
So
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (37:18)
So this is a two part answer. I'll try and pause between the two. one is that we need to understand our own relationship with money first andor in parallel to doing any sort of work with our clients. And two, we already have so many therapeutic skills that can easily translate to talking to your clients about money.
As you said, without having to become a financial therapist. So, first, when it comes to our own relationship with money, this is like self of the therapist type of work, understanding what do I think and feel about money? Where are the areas that I might have some bias about what I have or don't have? what are the privileges that I have? How does that impact the way that I think about money?
So, yes, the self-awareness and the understanding, but also I would argue having a a basic grasp of some of the tenets of personal finance and how it works for you in your own life. So making sure you have an understanding of how is your money currently working for you. A lot of people call this a budget. I call this a spending plan, but how much are you earning and spending each month? And then what's
Beyond that, what are you saving up for? Whether it's an emergency fund, whether it's a vacation, what are some of your like short to midterm goals? And then finally, how are you financially preparing for your future self? Whether that is investing in a retirement account or putting money away for a child's college expenses? Yes, understanding your relationship to money, but also do you have a comfort and an understanding of how you engage with your own money?
Because what often happens if we are thinking about engaging with our clients about money is what if they ask me something I don't know? Or what if they say something and you know, I have this like counter transference, and all of a sudden I'm judging myself and now I'm out of the room. So I think it's important first to like understand your own money scripts, your biases, your assumptions, and how that may show up for you in the room.
I'll pause there before I go into what we can do, if there's any clarity I can provide.
Taylor GIlbert (39:34)
Yeah, no, I think that's I think that's that's really important because like we've been talking about this conversation and these this kind of, you know, introspective look into how we talk about money. It's just not a conversation that we're usually we're used to having. Right, right, right. because of the taboo ness. And so I think that is an important piece. And I also just want to say like you you you don't have to
have it all together too to be able to have this conversation. Right. Like so, you know, I d I just don't want people to think like, well, I don't have a budget and I don't I'm not saving for retirement. So I'm not I can't have this conversation. You know what I mean? But yes, I think what you're saying is just being able to sit in that and think about how how is your money working for you? How how are you using it and yeah, just exploring that before you kind of like dive into yes this conversation with your clients. So that there is
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (40:31)
Beautiful
clarity. Like you do first of all, there's no such thing as being perfect with money, but you do not need to have everything figured out before you can talk about this.
Taylor GIlbert (40:40)
Yes, yes. Okay, so right. Going in, uncovering your kind of beliefs and just kind of having that internal exercise and then ta and then, you know, when you're in the room talking with people, how it like what are some tips that you you share with yeah, clinicians to start having this conversation?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (40:58)
Yeah. So I usually start by saying you already have so many skills that can and will serve you well when it comes to talking to your clients about money. You have skills in reflective listening. Many of you have additional training in things like motivational interviewing, cognitive behavioral therapy, mindfulness behavioral therapy, trauma-informed care, systemic understanding and thinking. So
All of those different skill sets and training and tools that you have can help clients build financial resilience and financial competence. Financial resilience and financial competence are linked with overall improved financial well-being.
So even if you don't go into the world of financial therapy, helping them build up some of these skills that I'm going to share can help them feel better about money. And of course, you you can also talk about money, but specifically helping your clients learn to tolerate uncertainty, how to build a robust set of coping skills, how to increase their self-efficacy or advocacy, and how to recover from
Real or perceived financial setbacks. All of those things contribute to improving financial resilience. And I think that's really important because in a lot of the world of personal finance, there is a very black and white, good or bad, right or wrong approach. And so what I find with a lot of my clients is they they listen to a couple podcasts on money, they read some books, and then, you know, they're following whoever's plan, they hit a snag.
And they start telling themselves, I'm not good at this, money's not just just not for me, I'll never understand it. And so you as a clinician can use your tools to help them build up their own financial resilience. And then the other thing that I so that's one particular study from 2025 of how how can we help our clients. But other another tenant that can be really helpful in improving clients' financial well-being.
is to have financial optimism. Financial optimism is not if you feel happy, then you know you can manifest your way to millions. Financial optimism is really about helping clients understand how to be persistent, how to plan long term, how to recover from setbacks, which again sounds like our financial resilience, and also to believe
That they are capable of achieving XYZ financial goal. I believe that I'm capable of saving up enough money in an emergency fund. I believe that I'll be able to pay off my debt. I believe that I'll have a tough conversation with my adult child. And as a therapist, helping them build up those skills can again help with financial wellness and help with financial outcomes. So that was from another study. And then the other thing is.
Specifically when it comes to financial saving behavior, I think therapists are really well equipped here to essentially match a an approach or an intervention to a client because it is not, as we know, one size fits all when it comes to treating a client, nor is it one size fits all when it comes to helping a client achieve a financial goal. Different people respond differently to the way you frame the goal.
The messaging that you use, what their internal and external motivations and incentives are. So clinicians can really tease out if somebody's working on saving up for something, what is your goal and why? What are the barriers that may get in the way? What are the values that are driving this decision? And what might be some ways that we can help you get there? So if all of this kind of put together, I can imagine for some clinicians, they're going, Well, well, Lindsay, that's like,
The basics. And what I want to express to people is yes, you have the skills already right now, in this moment, to start helping your clients with financial stressors. I think, you know, some of my earliest, earliest clients were ones who came to me who said, you know, I was in therapy for a long time and I really liked my therapist, but then I brought up money and they told me we couldn't talk about it. I was so
Frustrated and sad on behalf of my clients and their former clinician, because I'm like, my gosh, we know how important client clinician fit is in terms of growth and progress and behavior change. And what type of gift would it have been for that clinician whom my former client already had an established rapport and relationship with? What a gift it would have been if that clinician could have said,
thank you so much for bringing this to me. Let's let's work on this. Let's talk about this. let's figure it out together. Versus we don't talk about that here. Like it's it's hurtful on a clinical and interpersonal level. So I hope that folks listening here don't think of it as, great, Lindsay didn't give me anything, but much more, my gosh, I already have so many skills that I can use with my clients that are evidence-based and that can help them.
Save money, build up their resilience, increase their behavior change, have some hard conversations with people, and do it in the in the context of a relationship that is already therapeutically established.
Taylor GIlbert (46:40)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it also makes me think about, you know, I think a lot of us are really trying to acknowledge for our clients, you know, if they want to kind of have a dialogue about this around the systematic problems and capitalism and and all of that that is impacting their situation to give them to help them give themselves a little bit of grace of just like
This isn't all your fault because this is how our system is set up to support more people over others. And so on on one I love the op I I love the financial optimism piece because I feel like that kind of helps us get into a space with our clients of of just hope, you know, and not just cause I think Yes. I
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (47:30)
Thanks.
Taylor GIlbert (47:31)
how do you it's hard to balance, right? It's hard to balance this where it's like,
Yes, we all know that like, capitalism and the systemic barriers and all of that. And we can re we can really sit in that and get frustrated and but then also balancing like how can we help our clients
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (47:49)
Yes.
Taylor GIlbert (47:50)
like get I don't want to say get over it because you can't get over like a system that is oppressing you, but how can we support our clients through
the systems that they're work that they work in and live in. And I think we can we can do that too. So I'm just curious, like, with individuals that you've worked with where you're just like, you know, internally, gosh, there's so many things working against this person that they don't even have control over. Like how I feel like it could it could be hard to have like financial or to help them
Be optimistic, or for you even to feel optimistic, you know? And so that's just kind of an interesting tension. I'm curious how you handle that.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (48:37)
I I so appreciate this question. and and I'll share too that like I'd say last summer especially was the closest I really felt to I'm fine, everybody listening, FYI, but like to true financial nihilism. Like what's the point? Right. And that's a very scary place to be point
Taylor GIlbert (48:59)
Like what's the point?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (49:01)
of like
Earning money, saving money, working on any of this stuff if our systems are so broken and our our our supports are fraying and falling apart every which way we look, right?
Taylor GIlbert (49:14)
Yeah.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (49:15)
And I think we we've all been there in some way, shape, or form. And this doesn't mean necessarily like jumping to suicidal ideation, but it it can look like
Well, I I'm just gonna stop looking at my bank account. I'm gonna just take out as many credit cards as I want. I'm gonna buy the thing. I'm not gonna care. Which in the moment can feel really good, but in the long term can be incredibly harmful. So what do we do with this? What do we do with the fact that yes, the systems are messed up and we don't want our clients or ourselves to just live in a state of rage that doesn't include agency?
We don't want to take that away from ourselves or from our clients. So kind of like you do in like if you're treating chronic pain or if you're working with a client using something like acceptance and commitment therapy, it's being able to hold space for both things. Yes, the system is incredibly messed up. And what are the things that I have agency over? What are the things that I can do to care for myself in this moment?
And I often encourage clients when they're in that like nihilism or just constant state of rage and frustration and/or heartbreak to dial down how much stimuli they are getting, which is so much easier said than done, to be clear. So, meaning put a timer on your social media, take in less news. This is not the same as opting out and pretending it doesn't happen. It just means decreasing the volume.
Through which you are getting really upsetting information. And what's the one thing that if you were able to make some meaningful changes on in your financial life, that if you were able to start seeing some progress would help you feel a little bit more safe and a little bit more grounded. And every person is different. For a lot of my clients, it's it's an emergency fund, to be quite frank with you. They're like, I just wanna have some money saved. So if I'm laid off or
you know, if something, if you know, tree falls on my house, I can pay that insurance deductible. I just want to have that that cushion. So for a lot of people, that's it. But for other people, it's different. For other people, it is, I want to be able to put $50 a month into some sort of mutual aid program that is in my city. Great. How can we find a way to make sure that you're caring for yourself financially speaking and have that $50 to be able to give?
in in that way. Or, you know, so thinking through what's the one thing that I have agency over, because I I also think it's it's worth considering that we don't want to become nihilistic. We don't want to opt out of life and we don't want our clients to feel that way. And the the the answer is not you know, gaslighting yourself into pretending everything's perfect.
Perfect, but it is strengthening your resilience, reminding yourself of your agency and having a view of what's on the horizon and what can I be hopeful for that keeps you and your clients moving forward, because it can absolutely feel really heavy to be in the financial therapy space in the world that we live in.
Taylor GIlbert (52:39)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. That's that's thank you. Thank you for saying that. Because I'm just like, wow, that is it's a it's a challenging balance. So yeah, thank you. Yeah, of course. Ethical considerations that people should, you know, consider think about when discussing finances.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (53:00)
Yeah. so ethical considerations that you should consider when you're consider when you're talking about finances is making sure that you're staying in your lane or in your scope and making sure that you have some additional resources that you can have access to as far as sharing resources or referring to another provider or even collaborating with another provider.
Collaboration with a financial provider can be, you know, sequential. Maybe you have a client and they are really in financial crisis and they need to first solve that financial crisis. The collaboration there may be, you know, you you help them find local resources that can support them through that crisis. And once that crisis is stable, they can come back to you. It can be parallel, like they're doing something and you're doing something.
Or integrated where you have the release of information signed on both parties and you're able to have conversations with one another. And when I'm talking about other professionals that you might want to consider bringing into your work or just at least having referrals for are things like financial planners, financial advisors, potentially accountants, especially if you work with a lot of business owners, having a good accountant really matters.
I think attorneys, estate planning attorneys, divorce attorneys, custody attorneys, family law attorneys, that's helpful to have available to you. so when you can feel that you're getting on the edge of your scope of practice, I think that's an appropriate time to pause and make a referral or pause and and have a collaboration. and if you're like Lindsay, I don't even know where to go for those things, I always recommend looking at two one one.
The way that funds are dispersed for federal and state monies typically are county specific. So the services that are available to my clients here are going to be different than the services available to Taylor's clients. but what I think is really important for clinicians to know is that there are often free financial counseling services or financial literacy services available in your county, in addition to
material needs such as food, shelter, utility support, transportation support. but there's also almost always going to be some sort of financial coaching or financial literacy support that your clients can get. So look there first to see which nonprofit or which organization those funds are kind of flowing through in in your organization. Those are the big ethical considerations that I think about is making sure you're staying
Within your scope. And then as as always, like any of these things, as as we we started at the top, money impacts our mental health. So you know yourself, you know your clients. If you can see that maybe they had a mental health diagnosis that was very well managed, and you're starting to see symptom regression, that may be a cue to slow down and to check in to really ask, you know, hey, what what's going on here?
Obviously in in a way that you would ask it. you know, I'm noticing your sleep is off again, or I'm I'm hearing more anxious thoughts come up today. Like try and catch what's going on. Don't just push because you feel like you can. I know for me, especially early on, it would be really exciting when you could like see, my gosh, they're starting to connect the knots. This is great. And you push too far too fast. Like, you know, take your foot off the gas, check in, make sure you're not pushing them too far.
and then as always, like like have a release of information, something I did not mention today that I think is worth mentioning. Financial abuse exists in 99% of domestic violence situations. So I'm going to say that again because it's imperative. Financial abuse exists in 99% of domestic violence situations. We often don't think about financial abuse the same way we think of physical, mental.
Or sexual abuse, but financial abuse often looks like one person not having access to a checking account, a debit card, their receipts are being scrutinized, they're being yelled at or demeaned, their gas mileage is being tracked, they don't have anything in their own name, or conversely, they may have a bunch of credit cards taken out in their name, but they don't know how to access them.
Those are big, big, big red flags and you need to make sure that you're taking the appropriate actions that you would take in any other abuse situation if you are seeing those financial abuse red flags.
Taylor GIlbert (57:41)
Yeah. Thank you for for mentioning that. I think in terms of the outsourcing or, you know, referring out what you know, we spent some time s saying, you have the skills today to have this conversation, but do you think there's kind of a line where you would say, I think you should refer out to someone who specializes in financial therapy?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (58:08)
Ooh, that's a really good question. So I would say the the referral line to me, I'm usually thinking about it in terms of functioning, right? That's usually the line when I say, it's time to get a different type of support in. So if talking about money is starting to impact your client's ability to function, I mentioned regression, but also now they're having a hard time going to work or they're having a hard time.
Falling asleep, staying asleep. They can't stay engaged at their kids' soccer game. They're not hanging out with friends anymore. Like any of those things are pretty big cue that you probably need potentially a financial therapist for that client. I think about my work all the time. Sometimes my financial therapy clients, it'll bring up past traumas. And oftentimes I might say,
Let's make a referral to an EMDR therapist and then we can decide do we want to do parallel care or integrated care. So there have been times where something has come up in my financial therapy work and it makes the most sense for them to see a trauma therapist for a short amount of time and then come back. So just like you would make a referral if you're like, you know, I like this goes out of my scope. of my scope, exactly. So I I think about that when it comes to
Making a referral to a financial therapist. As far as making a referral to a financial professional, this is really if and when you start to feel like they're asking more technical questions instead of emotional, social, psychological questions. So they're not saying like, I I feel anxious anytime I think about money, which is pretty broad and you can probably work with. But if they are saying something like, I feel really anxious about money because I can't figure out
whether I should put it in this investment vehicle or I should give it all to, you know, put it all in crypto. Like if they're asking you something technical, that's a good cue to refer to a financial professional.
Taylor GIlbert (1:00:08)
Yeah, yeah. Last question for clinicians interested in learning more, you know, and just kind of want to take a little bit of deeper dive into learning more about financial therapy and gaining some more of these skills or maybe specializing, what would you recommend?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (1:00:25)
So I've been asked this question so many times that now I have a video in a blog post that answers like, what is a financial therapist? How do I become one? Yeah. Who can I get a certificate from? I will
Taylor GIlbert (1:00:36)
Yeah.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (1:00:38)
send that your way because as I mentioned at the top, I'm not associated with or endorsing some of these organizations. But at the this point in time in our conversation, Taylor, I have three different certificates. I have the financial social work certificate.
I have the CFT, the certified financial therapist, which is from the Financial Therapy Association. And then I also have the Trauma of Money Methods Practitioner Certificate.
Taylor GIlbert (1:01:04)
Yes.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (1:01:05)
And I also know that at the time of this recording, there are certain higher education colleges who have a financial therapy track. Right. So I I there are other options out there.
Taylor GIlbert (1:01:19)
Awesome. Well I will link all of that in the resources people know where to find. And yeah, anything else you wanna wanna say or share before
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (1:01:28)
Yeah,
I'll I mean, I'll I'll just like leave your listeners with a little bit of optimism. You have the skills. This is so important. And talking about money in any capacity, in my opinion, with your clients, even if all you're saying is that's a great question. I don't know the answer. You're modeling for them the importance of talking about money. So even if you're like, I don't want to go there, this freaks me out, just responding with.
affirmation and kindness and empathy and curiosity is going to go so far in ensuring that they are able to take those next steps to care for the intersection of money and mental health. So you've got this and if you want to learn more, there are many, many other resources to go deeper.
Taylor GIlbert (1:02:15)
Yes. Love it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Lindsay.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW (1:02:19)
My pleasure. Thanks, Taylor.
Taylor GIlbert (1:02:22)
yeah, thanks everyone for listening and as always we'll be back in two weeks.